浩瀚萬象（ONENESS）

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Contact Report 801／第801次接觸報告

接觸時間：2022年05月01日，星期一，23時33分

接觸地點：SSSC

英譯版本：2022年05月07日，星期六，DeepL Translator, Joseph Darmanin

中譯版本：2022年05月12日，星期四，DeepL Translator, James Hsu

中譯者摘要

在這次的接觸會面中，Ptaah談到了數日前有人駕車闖入「中心」的那件事，但只是簡略修正了Billy當時的觀察；那就是並不是只有一輛車而是有同型的兩輛車一前一後闖入，而且第二輛車有三個男性還操控了一架無人機對「中心」作了一番觀察。不過對這整件事只以還不清楚為由，沒有多作說明。

至於整篇報告中還有其他論述（包括引用其他媒體報導的資料），重點摘要如下：

一、現在發生的俄烏戰爭，其實是由美國在幕後暗中操控的。而所有那些在對俄羅斯實施制裁或向烏克蘭提供武器的國家，也都參與了這場戰爭。因此，這不再是俄羅斯和烏克蘭之間的戰爭，而是一場針對俄羅斯的多國戰爭。一切都已經接近於一場由美國控制的世界大戰，目的是迫使俄羅斯屈服，並逐步實現美國統治的世界。

二、我們現在看到的這場肉搏戰是多年前開始的針對俄羅斯的更廣泛戰爭的一部分，沒有人對烏克蘭感興趣。主要的目標是削弱俄羅斯，一旦對俄羅斯完成了這一步，他們將對中國做同樣的事情。烏克蘭危機已經使其他一切都黯然失色，但類似的情況也可能在台灣上演。所以中國人意識到了這一點。這就是為什麼他們不想放棄他們與俄羅斯的關係。

三、從2014年到2017年，烏克蘭軍隊的領導層有很多腐敗現象。除此之外，烏軍總體上沒有真正做好戰鬥準備。因此，在烏克蘭軍隊內部有很多自殺者，有很多酗酒問題，有很多事故，有很多謀殺案。這導致了很多烏克蘭年輕人離開這個國家，因為他們不想參軍，而這就是北約介入的原因。但為了彌補人員的不足，也可能是為了擁有更有侵略性的軍事人員，他們開始使用國際主義者和雇傭兵，這些准軍事人員發揮了重要作用，不是在正規戰中，他們被用來維持城市的秩序。這些人非常狂熱，可以說，他們非常危險。

四、目前的戰爭擴張實際上只是美國及其歐洲北約盟國對俄羅斯發動的一場更大戰爭的前線。最終目標是改變莫斯科的政權。這個目標是為了滿足西方企業的利益，同時也將中國納入其未來目標。通過這種方式，美國及其帝國主義盟友正試圖阻撓一個多極世界的出現，並抵消西方企業力量的歷史性衰退。報導說：「中國也在西方的政權更迭名單上，由於俄羅斯和中國之間的新經濟和軍事協定，在對中國下手之前，必須先幹掉俄羅斯。美國目前利用台灣的方式與它利用烏克蘭作為破壞穩定的工具的方式相似。」

五、因此，烏克蘭戰爭的結果至關重要。美國和北約希望繼續這場戰爭，以吞噬、摧毀和征服俄羅斯。因此，北約集團不計後果而犯下罪行地將武器湧入烏克蘭，以阻撓任何政治解決方案。美國-北約-基輔軸心國很可能訴諸進一步的栽贓暴行（例如布查大屠殺），以贏得針對俄羅斯的與論戰。

六、關於布查大屠殺，這是美國-北約-基輔軸心國的一次栽贓報導。時間上表明是俄羅斯軍隊於3月30日離開布查。3月31日，布查市長發佈了一段視頻，他興奮而自豪地宣佈俄羅斯軍隊已經離開。4月1日，一位擔任布查市議會代表的婦女也製作了類似的視頻，宣佈戰勝了俄羅斯人。這兩位市領導都沒有提到大屠殺或街道上的屍體，但在4月2日，烏克蘭部隊重新控制了布查。4月3日，西方媒體開始報導所謂的大屠殺事件。

七、烏克蘭正在輸掉這場戰爭，並採取了一種行動方式，使公眾輿論反對俄羅斯，希望美國和北約隨後會完全站在基輔政權一邊參戰。因此，烏克蘭已經用栽贓事件取代了實際的進攻性軍事行動（它已經沒有真正的能力），作為其詆毀和擊敗俄羅斯的主要戰略。

八、這場戰爭是以一個更大的任務的名義進行的 —— 俄羅斯的政權更迭，西方希望這將使俄羅斯被分解成更小的國家，而中國也在西方的政權更迭名單上，而且由於俄羅斯和中國之間新的經濟和軍事協定，在對中國下手之前，必須先幹掉俄羅斯。

九、如果這場戰爭能夠延長數月甚至數年，美國-歐盟「軍工複合體」的既得利益者就會獲得巨大的利潤。此外北約也在走向國際，在澳大利亞、紐西蘭、韓國、日本和其他亞太國家吸收“夥伴”。所以美國和北約知道，這是他們保持對地球控制的最後機會。華盛頓-倫敦-巴黎-柏林-布魯塞爾想要完全的權力和控制，並準備好摧毀所有阻擋在他們面前的國家。

十、1975年美國參議院委員會關於中情局控制媒體的里程碑式的聽證會是由參議員弗蘭克．丘奇主持的。當時，據透露，全世界有400名記者在為中情局提供新聞報導。這就是所謂的“知更鳥行動”，而所謂的“布查強姦案”等，據判就是由該機構製作的。

最後，Ptaah勸Billy，即使他們在中心的所有人這次都擺脫了冠狀病毒，也不要改變他們以前的預防措施，也就是正確佩戴口罩與保持安全社交距離。

Synopsis／提要

This is the entire contact report. It is an authorised but unofficial DeepL preliminary English translation and most probably contains errors. Please note that all errors and mistakes etc. will continuously be corrected, depending on the available time of the involved persons (as contracted with Billy/FIGU). Therefore, do not copy-paste and publish this version elsewhere, because any improvement and correction will occur HERE in this version!

這是這篇完整的接觸報告。這是一個授權但非官方的DeepL初步英文翻譯，很可能包含錯誤。請注意，所有錯誤和失誤等將持續修正，這將取決於有關人員的可用時間（依照與比利／FIGU的合約所訂）。因此，不要複製粘貼和發佈此版本在其他地方，因為任何改進和修正將會在這個版本中發生！

Billy:

Hello, Ptaah, be welcome. – Greetings, you're a little earlier than you announced.

你好，Ptaah，歡迎你並問候你好，你比你所說的時間早到了一點。

Ptaah:

Greetings too – and thank you for your welcome. Yes, it so happened that I am here a little earlier.

我也問候你 —— 謝謝你的歡迎。是的，碰巧我早到了一會兒。

Billy:

That is not a problem, on the contrary, it is fine with me, because I want to ask you if you have found out anything regarding the car from Ukraine?

這不是問題，反而我覺得很好，因為我想問你，關於烏克蘭的那輛車，你有什麼發現嗎？

Ptaah:

We were able to fathom that because there were their 2 different ones that were in the car park 7 minutes apart. What you observed first was obviously a private vehicle, and the persons who belonged to it were obviously also on the Centre premises as a result of private interests. But what you did not observe: After the vehicle drove away, which was occupied by 2 persons, as we noticed, another vehicle of the same type drove up, from which 3 male persons got out, who obviously filmed the whole Centre area from some height with a small flying apparatus, which one of the persons controlled on a viewing device. You were probably otherwise occupied at the time, so you did not see this vehicle drive into the car park and park behind the trailers. It was only when it was driven away, which was about 10 minutes later, that you observed it and noticed that it had a CD sign on it, as you correctly pointed out. But we should not speak openly about this, because we have not yet been able to clarify what the whole thing was about. In any case, what you observed was correct, but it really had nothing to do with the vehicle, which belonged to a female and a male person who obviously visited the Centre out of pure curiosity. What you observed later, however, was indeed a very expensive and armoured vehicle whose 3 male occupants had filmed the entire Centre area from some height with a flying apparatus. That is what we were able to elicit, but what the reason of it all was and is, we do not know yet, which is why we should not talk about it and guess.

我們能夠推測出這方面情況，因為有兩輛不同的車在停車場，前後相隔了7分鐘。你首先觀察到的顯然是一輛私人汽車，屬於這輛車的人顯然也因為私人利益而來到中心的。但你沒有看到的是：我們注意到，在前輛車開走後，另一輛同類型的車開了過來，從車上下來了三個男性，他們顯然用一個小型飛行裝置（無人機）從某個高度拍攝了整個中心區域，其中一個人用一個遙控裝置控制了這個飛行器。當時你可能正忙於其他事情，所以你沒有看到這輛車開進停車場並停在拖車後面。只有當它被開走時，也就是大約10分鐘後，你才看到它，並注意到它上面有一個CD標誌，正如你指出的那樣。但是我們不應該公開談論這個問題，因為我們還沒有能夠澄清整個事情的來龍去脈。無論如何，你觀察到的情況是正確的，但這確實與前一輛車無關，該車屬於一名女性和一名男性，他們顯然是出於純粹的好奇而來到中心。然而，你後來看到的確實是一輛非常昂貴的裝甲車，車上的三名男性乘客用飛行器從某個高度拍攝了整個中心區域。這就是我們能夠得到的資訊，但這一切的原因是什麼，我們還不知道，這就是為什麼我們還不應該談論和猜測這件事。

Billy:

I see, then I did not take a closer look at the car of the woman and the man, but at the one that had come here a few minutes later, after the vehicle I had first observed had already driven away. But it is strange that two cars of the same make and from the same country turn up. I wonder whether at least the car with the CD symbol is connected with the letter that came from Kiev or something, which was also genuine, as you have established. The other car must have driven up when I had to go over to the flat for a few minutes. That was probably a quadrocopter, a so-called drone, what you call a flying apparatus.

我明白了，那麼我就沒有仔細看那個女人和那個男人的車，而是看到了幾分鐘後來到這裡的那輛車，那是在我第一次看到的那輛車已經開走之後。但奇怪的是，有兩輛來自同一個國家的相同品牌的汽車出現了。我想知道，至少那輛帶有CD標誌的車是否與來自基輔（Kiev）的那封信或其他東西有關，正如你所確定的，那封信也是真的。另一輛車肯定是在我不得不去住所（flat）待幾分鐘的時候開過來的。而那可能是一架四旋翼飛行器，一架所謂的無人機（drone），就是你們所說的飛行裝置。

Ptaah:

However, the object was larger than the usual ones, which only have 4 propeller mechanisms; the flying apparatus in fact had 6 of them.

但是，這個物體比一般的飛行器要大，一般的飛行器只有4個螺旋槳裝置；這個飛行器實際上有6個螺旋槳。

Billy:

Although I have never seen such large ones, they do seem to exist. Perhaps such large drones are just equipped with film cameras, because such cameras are certainly not light in terms of weight?

雖然我從未見過這麼大的，但它們似乎確實存在。也許這樣的大型無人機只是配備了膠片攝影機，因為這樣的攝影機在重量上肯定不輕？

Ptaah:

That may be, but we really should not talk about it until we know what all the fuss is about.

可能是這樣，但在我們知道它是怎麼回事之前，我們真的不應該談論這個問題。

［中譯者註：顯然這件事過於敏感，還是先少談為妙！以免惹來更多麻煩…］

Billy:

Then talking about it openly is off-limits for this time. So let's talk about it again later when you know more. But then I want to ask you about the fact that I have been asked several times recently that we should also publish reports that deal with politics in addition to the Corona epidemic in the 'FIGU Zeitzeichen'. This, for example, in relation to the war in Ukraine, why it has really broken out and what is effectively intended by it. We also receive e-mails about this, including questions from all over the world, such as the following, which reached us from Italy:

那麼公開談論這件事目前是不妥的，所以我們以後等你知道更多的時候再談吧。但接下來我想問你的事，那就是最近有人多次問我，我們在“FIGU 《Zeitzeichen》”上除了發表冠狀病毒疫情之外，也應該涉及一些政治的報導。例如與烏克蘭的戰爭有關，為什麼它真的爆發了，它的實際意圖是什麼。我們也收到了有關的電子郵件，包括來自世界各地的提問，比如以下這個問題就是來自義大利的電子郵件： 

Question

問題

We have some questions that D. and I would like to ask Billy because we do not understand some things about the war in Ukraine. Our questions are about the case where only one side really wants to negotiate peace and the other side only wants war without negotiations. The following is an extract from the 798th contact:

我和D有一些問題想問比利，因為我們對烏克蘭戰爭的一些事情不瞭解。我們的問題是關於只有一方真正想進行和平談判，而另一方只想打仗而不談判的情況。以下是《第798次接觸鰾告》的摘錄：

[…] The Russian President Putin let it break out because he was not able to persist in patience in the way it was loaded on him, and this well-consciously by the senile leader Biden of the USA, who hoped that Putin would carry out the crime of war, namely by losing patience, whereby America could then ultimately do that, namely to be able to continue to station itself massively in the NATO countries close to Russia. […]

［...］俄羅斯總統普京發動戰爭，因為他已失去耐性，而這是由美國年邁的總統拜登精心策劃的，他希望普京因失去耐心而犯下戰爭罪，從而使美國最終能夠達到目的，那就是能夠繼續在靠近俄羅斯的北約國家大規模駐軍。［...］

We would like to understand how much patience Russia (Putin) would have had to have in order to avoid war, and what could or should Putin have done if he had known about impending attacks on Russia from Ukraine, whose border is only 450 km from Moscow? What could Russia have done to publicise the warmongering machinations of NATO, to inform the human beings in the West of NATO's responsibility for possible preparations for war, to contain or stop these NATO war plans by making the Western public aware of the risks?

我們想瞭解，為了避免戰爭，俄羅斯（普京）必須有多大的耐心，如果普京知道烏克蘭即將對俄羅斯發動攻擊，而烏克蘭的邊界離莫斯科只有450公里，普京可以或應該做些什麼？俄羅斯可以做些什麼來宣傳北約的戰爭陰謀，讓西方的人類知道北約對可能的戰爭準備負有責任，通過讓西方公眾意識到風險來遏制或阻止北約的這些戰爭計畫？

These questions also relate to a similar scenario that could occur in the near future with Finland and Sweden joining NATO: First, what could Russia do to prevent nuclear and bacteriological weapons from being placed on its borders, and second, what could or should Putin do to avoid a pre-emptive or defensive war against Finland and thus against NATO, in order to prevent a situation similar to that in Ukraine?

這些問題也涉及到在不久的將來芬蘭和瑞典加入北約後可能出現的類似情況。首先，俄羅斯可以做些什麼來防止核武器和細菌武器被放置在其邊界上，其次，普京可以或應該做些什麼來避免對芬蘭，從而對北約的先發制人或防禦性戰爭，以防止出現類似烏克蘭的情況？

In the quoted excerpt, again in this sentence, it says that this war was started by Putin, but we know that the Ukrainian army has been bombing the Donbass since 2014 with the aim of destroying the Russian-speaking population. In fact, this war, which had already claimed at least 15,000 human lives before Russia intervened, was started by the Ukrainian army and subsequently waged by the separatists in the Donbass. Are we in the wrong?

在引用的摘錄中，同樣是這句話，它說這場戰爭是由普京發起的，但我們知道，烏克蘭軍隊自2014年以來一直在轟炸頓巴斯（Donbass），目的是摧毀講俄語的人口。事實上，這場戰爭在俄羅斯干預之前已經奪走了至少一萬五千人的生命，它是由烏克蘭軍隊發起的，隨後由頓巴斯的分離主義分子發動的。我們有錯嗎？

[…] But what does not take a long time to think about and is clear, this refers to the fact that war should never be waged and murder should never be committed. […]

［...］但不需要花很長時間去思考就很清楚的是，這指的是永遠不應該發動戰爭，永遠不應該進行殺戮。［...］

When you say that one should never wage war and never commit murder, let us remember that even the laws of the Creation provide for self-defence. Could this war be considered self-defence or can self-defence only be exercised after an attack? Can a pre-emptive strike never be considered self-defence? This point is important because it concerns the way in which many conflicts have erupted, are erupting and, unfortunately, will erupt in the world.

當你說永遠不應該發動戰爭，永遠不應該進行殺戮時，讓我們記住，即使是「造物法則」（the laws of the Creation）也認同自我防衛。這場戰爭可以被認為是自衛，還是只有在受到攻擊後才可以行使自衛？先發制人的打擊能否永遠不被視為自衛？這一點很重要，因為它涉及到世界上許多衝突已經爆發、正在爆發以及不幸將爆發的方式。

If one or more states are preparing to invade you to destroy you, what should be done to prevent a conflict when all diplomatic avenues have been exhausted or only one side really wants peace while the other only wants war? Or react earlier, so that the only defence then left is nuclear war?

如果一個或多個國家準備入侵你，要消滅你，當所有的外交途徑都已用盡，或者只有一方真正想要和平，而另一方只想要戰爭時，應該如何防止衝突的發生？或者更早地做出反應，以便那時剩下的唯一防禦就是核戰爭？

We have great doubts and would be grateful if you could explain them to us, because it is very important for us and, we think, for many human beings in the world. If you think it appropriate, you could also publish your answers to these questions by publishing them in one of the documents regularly issued by FIGU.

我們有很大的疑問，如果你能向我們解釋，我們將非常感激，因為這對我們非常重要，而且我們認為對世界上許多人也非常重要。如果你認為合適的話，你也可以將你對這些問題的答案發表在FIGU定期發佈的文件中。

We would like to take this opportunity once again to thank you for all you do and to give you a big hug. E.Z.

我們想借此機會再次感謝你所做的一切，並給你最熱烈的擁抱。E.Z. 

Ptaah:

These are matters of great concern, and I can understand that the longer, the more the Earth-humans are unsettled and do not know what logically to do, especially with regard to political machinations. But we do not want to interfere in these in particular, nor should you do so, as you have kept to it since my father's Sfath times, but only when you suffered harm and woe, as I have read in my father's annals. However, the fact that you are asked whether you can also publish political aspects and articles in the Zeitzeichen is not really an objection, as long as you remain neutral throughout and do not make any comments of opinion on your part. Unfortunately, otherwise the majority of Earth-humans would repeat what you already experienced at school with teacher Frei, by whom you were severely abused and beaten up because you suggested to him that he should include in the lessons that the future of the Earth and its humanity is threatening to perish in the near future because everything is being done in a senseless chemical way to destroy the ozone layer. This, as well as the fact that the climate is already beginning to collapse as a result of overpopulation and its very unreasonable and even criminal machinations that are hostile to life and nature.

這些都是大家非常關心的問題，我可以理解，時間越長，地球人就越不安，不知道邏輯上該怎麼做，特別是在政治陰謀方面。但我們不想特別干涉這些，你也不應該這樣做，因為從我父親的Sfath時代起，你就一直堅持著，只是在你遭受傷害和悲哀的時候，正如我在我父親的《大事記要》（annals）中讀到的那樣。然而，有人問你是否也能在《Zeitzeichen》上發表政治方面的內容和文章，其實並不反對這樣做，只要你自始至終保持中立，不發表任何你的意見。很遺憾，如果不這樣做，大多數的地球人都會重複你在學校與Frei老師的經歷，那就是你被他嚴重處罰，因為你曾向他建議，他應該在課程中加入這樣的警告，由於地球人類以毫無意義的化學方式來破壞大氣的臭氧層，如此下去，人類在不久的將來會有面臨滅亡的威脅。這一方面，還有氣候已經開始崩潰的事實，這都是因為非常不合理的人口過剩，是對生命和大自然有敵意的侵犯。

The result of all this will be that plants of all kinds will change and even poisonous and edible plants will grow side by side in such a way that they can hardly or no longer be distinguished from each other. This would mainly refer to fungi, which would have more than 7.6 million genera and species on Earth, which would also be interlinked in the forests in the ground by the square kilometre, etc. You wanted what my father Sfath taught you and also let you see in nature and in the future, that teacher Frei should include this in his curriculum and also spread it in the world.

這一切的結果是，各種植物都將發生變化，甚至有毒和可食用的植物也將並排生長，以至於它們幾乎不再能夠相互區分。這主要是指真菌，地球上將有七百六十多萬個真菌的屬和種，它們在地面上的森林中是以平方公里為單位相互連通等等。你希望我父親Sfath教你的東西，能夠在自然界和未來受到重視，Frei老師應該把這些訊息納入他的課程，也能向全世界傳播。

You wanted to make the Earth-humans aware, as my father recorded in his annals, that the human beings should learn and do what is necessary for the future of the Earth and its nature as well as fauna, flora and the climate, so that evil would not come, although you knew that your efforts would be useless. At that time, as father wrote, you were still very enthusiastic and of the opinion that through your serious efforts of enlightenment you could stop and change the already ongoing process of the inexorably growing overpopulation and its inevitably resulting destructive machinations on the planet, nature, as well as on the fauna and flora and the climate. It was all well-meant of you, but in your enthusiasm you did not consider that the Earth-humans would not listen to you, especially not Teacher Frei, who considered everything a lie, consequently he punished you for the alleged lies. As father recorded in his annals, you both knew what would happen in the future, and you told this to Teacher Frei. He, however, did not want to believe this and accused you of lying, which is why he beat you with a blackthorn whip in front of the entire class. Then you decided, my father Sfath wrote, that you would never again say anything about this to other human beings and would also never do it again.

你想讓地球人意識到，正如我父親在他的大事記要中所記錄的那樣，人類應該學習並做對地球及其自然以及動植物和氣候的未來有必要的事情，這樣災害就不會到來，儘管你知道你的努力是沒有用的。當時，正如父親所寫的，你仍然非常熱情，認為通過你認真的啟蒙努力，你可以阻止和改變已經在進行的人口過剩的過程，以及它不可避免地對地球、自然、動植物和氣候造成的破壞。這都是你的好意，但在你的熱情中，你沒有考慮到地球人不會聽你的，特別是Frei老師，他認為一切都是謊言，因此他為所謂的謊言懲罰了你。正如父親在他的大事記要中所記錄的那樣，你們都知道未來會發生什麼，並且你們把這些告訴了Frei老師。然而，他不願意相信這些，並指責你撒謊，這就是為什麼他在全班同學面前用黑荊棘鞭子打你。那時候你就決定，我的父親Sfath寫道，你再也不會對其他人說起這件事了，而且永遠不會。

That the ozone layer was being damaged by human beings in such a way that life on Earth was in danger, you also kept quiet about it. Your teacher also considered this to be a crazy fantasy and a mendacious expression of opinion on your part and a lie that should not be spread, which is why he beat you up, although you were right with your prediction, which you had even written down for him and handed over to him.

臭氧層被人類破壞到如此程度，以至於地球上的生命將處於危險之中，你從那時起就堅持對此事保持沉默。你的老師也認為這是一個瘋狂的幻想，是你惡意的意見表達，是一個不應該被傳播的謊言，這就是為什麼他打了你，儘管你的預測是正確的，你甚至將這些訊息寫下並交給了他。

The majority of Earth-humans have not changed their attitude since then, and they still do not want to know what the future will really bring them. Nor does the majority of Earth-humans want to do anything about the threat of the future, which they cannot yet understand because they are incapable of thinking and are therefore so stupid and incapable of thinking that they cannot foresee it. This applies in particular to the leaders of all states, who should be responsible for what will happen in the future due to their inability to foresee. That the majority of Earth-humans are still incapable of electing the correct persons to their heads of state is incomprehensible to us Plejaren. This is not because an electorate is admitted which is consistently incapable of judging as well as electing in every conceivable necessary respect those persons who proclaim themselves to be leaders of the state, but who are truly unfit for an office of state leadership and thus absolutely incapable.

從那時起，大多數的地球人並沒有改變他們的態度，他們仍然不想知道未來到底會帶給他們什麼。大多數地球人也不想對未來的威脅做些什麼，他們還不能理解，因為他們沒有認真思考的能力，因此他們非常愚蠢，沒有能力思考，沒有足夠的遠見。這尤其適用於所有國家的領導人，他們應該對未來發生的事情負責，但他們沒有能力預知。大多數地球人仍然沒有能力選出正確的人作為他們的國家領導人，這對我們Plejaren來說是不可理解的。這並不是因為一個合格的選民始終無法判斷，也無法在每一個可以想像的必要方面選出那些宣稱自己是國家領導者的人，但他們確實不適合擔任國家的領導者，而且絕對沒有這個能力。

Billy:

Why are you saying that because of my youth, that is all long gone. What I have already witnessed, experienced and learned from in my youth is probably only important for me, so especially that I stick to it. But that does not need to be explicitly mentioned, because it has been a long time since then. In Frei's case, the point was – he was a rabid know-it-all who did not let anyone tell him anything and was unteachable – that he was self-important and a human being who did not let anyone tell him anything. Sfath also said that he did not want to have anything to do with this guy, which is why he did not take him into his confidence, just like the teachers Graf and Leemann. Anyone who said something against Frei's opinion had to endure his violent outbursts of rage. I knew that, so it was my own fault that he beat me up. It was naïve of me, but I wanted to try anyway – or so I thought at the time – because I hoped that Frei, as a teacher, could achieve something if he spread what I told him. But he did not want to be lectured by a boy like me, whom he had it in for anyway and would prefer to beat to death, because dirt didn't belong in the world, as he once said. But let it be, because past is past, and I will be careful not to make the same mistake again that I made back in my youth, consequently I will never again try to make my opinion clear to a human being. What I have been doing since then is nothing more and nothing less than saying what is fact of what is happening at the moment, what corresponds to reality and its truth, or how the fact in question behaves. What the human being then makes of it, how he understands everything and how he then acts, that is his decision alone and his beer. And if I now answer the questions of E. and D., then I can do nothing other than say what is fact, and what they then want to think through and decide from it, that is their business alone. It must be clear, however, that everything I say does not reflect my opinion, because this always remains neutral, so I do not represent an opinion, but simply reflect what is fact and corresponds to reality and its truth, without forming an opinion about it and expressing one. So in any case, only what is effectively fact will be brought up, without adding even one iota of an opinion of my own.

你為什麼會說到我年輕的事，那些事都已經過去很久了。我年輕時經歷的、學到的、學到的東西，大概只有我自己覺得重要，所以特別堅持下來。但這不需要明確提及，因為那已經是很久以前的事了。在Frei的情況中，重點是 —— 他是一個狂熱的萬事通，不讓任何人告訴他任何事情，而且是不可教的 —— 他是自視甚高，是一個不讓任何人告訴他任何事情的人。Sfath還說，他不想和這個人有任何瓜葛，這就是為什麼他沒有把他放在心上，就像Graf和Leemann老師一樣。任何說了反對Frei意見的人都得忍受他的暴怒。我知道這一點，所以他打我是我自己的錯。我太天真了，但我還是想嘗試一下 —— 當時我是這麼想的 —— 因為我希望Frei作為一名教師，如果他傳播我告訴他的東西，就能取得一些成就。但他不想被像我這樣的男孩說教，反正他和我有仇，寧願把我打死，因為正如他曾經說過的，污垢不屬於這個世界。但就這樣吧，因為過去的事情已經過去了，我會小心不再犯我年輕時犯過的同樣的錯誤，因此我再也不會試圖向一個人表達我的觀點。從那時起，我一直在做的事情不多也不少，就是說此刻正在發生的事情是什麼，什麼是符合現實及其真相，或者正在討論的事實是如何表現的。人類如何理解它，他如何理解一切，然後他如何行動，這是他自己的決定，也是他的事情。如果我現在回答E.和D.的問題，那麼我只能說什麼是事實，他們想通過什麼來思考和決定，那是他們自己的事情然而，必須明確的是，我所說的一切並不反映我的觀點，因為這始終保持中立，所以我不代表一種觀點，而只是反映什麼是事實，並與現實相符合的真相，而不是表達一種觀點。因此，在任何情況下，只有實際上是事實的東西才會被提出來，而不會加入哪怕是一丁點我自己的意見。

So: The facts are these – and everything I say now has nothing to do with my own opinion from A to Z, but they are only facts that I state – that Putin let the war break out because he was not able to remain patient. This simply means that he could not muster the patience to sit through the warmongering posturing of the senile US president, Biden. This means that the senile US president – who is secretly directed by the US dark government – should have finally come to his senses and stopped his childish diatribes. But this did not happen, consequently Putin lost patience and started the war. That is the fact, as it actually happened; but every war is always wrong and, moreover, a crime that can never be repaired, because war means death, murder, ruin and destruction of human achievements, as well as destruction of nature and damage to fauna and flora and thus to all life in general.

所以：事實是這樣的 —— 我現在說的一切都與我自己的觀點無關，從A到Z，但它們只是我陳述的事實 —— 普京讓戰爭爆發是因為他無法保持耐心。這僅僅意味著，他無法耐著性子看著美國總統拜登的好戰姿態。這意味著這位由美國黑暗政府秘密指揮的年邁美國總統應該最終清醒過來，停止他那幼稚的謾駡。但這並沒有發生，因此，普京失去了耐心，發動了戰爭。這就是事實，因為它實際發生了；但每場戰爭總是錯誤的，而且是永遠無法彌補的罪行，因為戰爭意味著死亡、殺戮、毀滅和對人類成就的破壞，以及對大自然的破壞和對動植物的傷害，從而對所有的生命都是如此。

That everything was one-sided with regard to keeping the peace was clear from the very beginning, and only Russia, and thus Putin, wanted to keep the peace. Against these efforts and his fruitless waiting stood the senile warmongering USA president Biden – in his secret background, however, the US dark government, which has been carrying out its world domination-addicted plans since 1787 – together with Selensky, the president of Ukraine. NATO was and is still involved in all this, because Selensky wants Ukraine to become a member of this international murderous organisation, which Harry S Truman founded in the 1940s as a secret member of the 'Dark Government of America' for the purpose of achieving America's world domination. Something the entire American people know nothing about and have been led around by the nose ever since. – Selensky, who was accused of being a NAZI, a traitor to the country and the people by a letter to me from within the government's own ranks, who is doing everything he can to continue the war by begging for weapons worldwide, is ice-cold and calculating and knows exactly how to make the stupid people of the world believe him. All the stupid governments around the world would give this NAZI Selensky, as he was dubbed in the letter, a hand with their irresponsible arms supplies and do exactly what he wants. – Moreover, behind everything is the 'Dark Government of America', which has existed since 1787 and whose ambition is absolute world domination, so the USA can already realise its military presence in many states of the Earth for this purpose.

在維持和平方面，一切都是一邊倒的，這方面從一開始就很清楚，只有俄羅斯，也就是普京，才想維持和平。然而，與這些努力和他毫無結果的等待相反的是，年邁好戰的美國總統拜登 —— 在他的秘密背景下，美國黑暗政府，自1787年以來一直在沉迷於統治世界的計畫 —— 與烏克蘭總統澤連斯基（Selensky）共謀。北約過去和現在都參與了這一切，因為澤連斯基希望烏克蘭成為這個國際殺人組織的成員，而這個組織是哈里．S．杜魯門（Harry S Truman）在1940年代作為“美國黑暗政府”的秘密成員成立的，目的是實現美國的世界統治。這件事整個美國人民對此一無所知，並從那時起一直被牽著鼻子走。澤連斯基被他政府內部給我的一封信指責為納粹分子，是國家和人民的叛徒，他向全世界乞求武器，竭盡全力繼續戰爭，他冷酷無情，精於算計，完全知道如何讓世界上愚蠢的人們相信他。世界上所有愚蠢的政府都會用他們不負責任的武器供應給這個納粹澤連斯基（他在信中被這樣稱呼）提供幫助，並完全按照他的意願行事。此外，一切的背後是“美國黑暗政府”，它從1787年起就存在，其野心是絕對的世界統治，所以美國已經可以為此目的在地球的許多國家實現其軍事存在。

What is happening now in the war in Ukraine is controlled by America, which is secretly playing along in the background, for example in such a way – whereby the official donations etc. are not taken into account – that America is carrying out espionage on the Russian side and is spying out where the Russian general headquarters are located, which are then betrayed to the Ukrainians. I myself was able to observe with Quetzal that the Americans supplied the exact coordination data of the locations to the Ukrainian strategists, who then launched their missile attacks against these command stations. So, in this and other secret ways, America is involved in the war in Ukraine, as are all those countries, or at least their irresponsible ones, who are biased in imposing sanctions against Russia or supplying weapons to Ukraine. All of them are irresponsibly involved in the war, so that it is no longer a war between Russia and Ukraine, but a multi-country war against Russia, whereby everything is already coming close to a world war, controlled by America, for the purpose of forcing Russia to the ground and to be able to incorporate it into the USA's desire for world domination.

現在於烏克蘭戰爭中發生的事情是由美國控制的，美國在幕後暗中參與，例如，以這樣一種方式 —— 不考慮官方捐款等 —— 美國在俄羅斯方面進行間諜活動，並監視俄羅斯總司令部的位置，然後將其出賣給烏克蘭人。我自己能夠與Quetzal觀察到，美國人向烏克蘭戰略家提供了這些地點的確切協調資料，然後他們對這些指揮部發動了導彈攻擊。因此，以這種和其他秘密的方式，美國參與了烏克蘭的戰爭，所有那些在對俄羅斯實施制裁或向烏克蘭提供武器方面有偏見的國家，或者至少是他們不負責任的國家，也都參與了烏克蘭的戰爭。所有這些國家都不負責任地捲入了這場戰爭，因此，這不再是俄羅斯和烏克蘭之間的戰爭，而是一場針對俄羅斯的多國戰爭，據此，一切都已經接近於一場由美國控制的世界大戰，目的是迫使俄羅斯屈服，並能夠將其納入美國統治的世界。

Russia could not do anything to prevent what has happened and continues to happen, because the negative propaganda against Russia has been so confusingly anchored in the minds of the majority of human beings on Earth for 235 years that these human beings are only oriented towards America's false propaganda, and consequently the reality and its truth cannot penetrate. Thus, the hatred and the feelings of revenge against Russia – fomented for about 235 years by America, because it cannot politically reduce Russia and cannot include it in its world domination allusions – weigh so blatantly in the majority of peoples worldwide that reality and its truth are drowned. This especially secretly fomented by the dark government, of which the American people know nothing and which, moreover, controls the government, which does exactly what corresponds to the principle of its aspiration, namely, world domination.

俄羅斯無法阻止已經發生和繼續發生的事情，因為針對俄羅斯的負面宣傳已經在地球上大多數人的頭腦中混亂地紮根了235年，這些人只對美國的虛假宣傳感興趣，因而無法瞭解真相。因此，對俄羅斯的仇恨和報復情緒 —— 由美國煽動了大約235年，因為它不能在政治上削弱俄羅斯，不能把它納入其世界統治的暗盤（allusions）中 —— 在全世界大多數人心中如此明顯，以至於現實及其真相被淹沒了。這尤其是由黑暗政府秘密煽動的，美國人民對它一無所知，而且它還控制著政府，而政府的所作所為正好符合其野心，那就是統治世界。

America has kept its lies and slanders against Russia unchanged since time immemorial, stretched taut and relentlessly open to the top, in order to make this huge country appear as bad as possible because it is inaccessible to America's world domination aspirations. There is nothing Russia can do about this, for the bulk of Earth-humans are so numbed and befuddled by America's lies and slanders against Russia that hardly an iota of truth can penetrate and impart logic, understanding and reason to the bulk of Earth-humans – all of whom are preceded by those in power who, in their incompetence and stupidity, align themselves with what they are led to believe. Since time immemorial, America's lies and slanders have found favour with the stupid and therefore non-thinking majority of the world's population, who allow themselves to be lied to and blinded by America, much to Russia's chagrin. At the same time, it has never been questioned what America has done so far and continues to do, which for the sake of its desire for world domination keeps the peoples of Earth on a fool's rope, whereby the warmongering machinations of the USA are secured by NATO, in which America is at the forefront.

美國自古以來一直保持著對俄羅斯的謊言和誹謗不變，繃得緊緊的，無情地張揚著，為的是讓這個巨大的國家顯得盡可能的糟糕，因為它無法滿足美國統治世界的野心。俄羅斯對此無能為力，因為大部分地球人都被美國對俄羅斯的謊言和誹謗弄得麻木不仁，幾乎沒有一絲真相可以滲透並傳授給大部分地球人邏輯、理解和理性 —— 所有這些人都被那些無能和愚蠢的當權者擺在前面，與他們被引導相信的東西保持一致。自古以來，美國的謊言和誹謗得到了愚蠢的、因而不善於思考的世界大多數人口的青睞，他們允許自己被美國欺騙和蒙蔽，這讓俄羅斯感到非常懊惱。同時，人們從來沒有質疑過美國迄今為止所做的和繼續做的事情，為了實現其統治世界的欲望，它使地球上的人民處於愚昧的狀態，美國的好戰陰謀得到了北約的掩護，而美國在北約中是處於領導的地位。

Apart from all the stupid governments that do not see through Selensky and supply him with weapons, the fallible rulers of the Earth and the individual countries know no limits. The fact that the verbal promise was already broken that there would never be an eastward expansion beyond Germany by NATO against Russia – just like the breaking of the verbal promise by America and Germany in the 1990s – triggered unpleasant differences early on. But Russia, for the sake of peace, could do nothing about it, because the USA still wielded the dangerous nuclear sceptre and threatened to raze the whole country to the ground. The majority of today's politicians of both sexes, who have not experienced all the evils of the last world war and have no idea of tooting and blowing weapons, mass murder and torture, as well as rape and destruction and other evils of war and what war actually is and are as inexperienced as babies, nevertheless run a big mouth and do not know what it is all about.

除了所有沒有看透澤連斯基並向他提供武器的愚蠢政府之外，地球上那些易犯錯的首腦和各個國家都不知道什麼是極限。事實上，北約已經違背了絕不向德國以外東擴以對抗俄羅斯的口頭承諾 —— 就像美國和德國在1990年代打破口頭承諾一樣 —— 這在早期就引發了令人不快的分歧。但為了和平，俄羅斯對此無能為力，因為美國仍然揮舞著危險的核權杖，威脅要將整個國家夷為平地。今天的大多數男女政治家，沒有經歷過上一次世界大戰的所有傷害，不知道使用武器、大規模屠殺與酷刑的可怕後果，也不知道強姦和破壞以及其他戰爭的邪惡，不知道戰爭究竟是什麼，他們就像嬰兒一樣缺乏經驗，但他們還是到處大聲叫囂，不知道這一切是怎麼回事。

Truly, the Western world cannot be sensitised against war because this Western world is dependent on America and, moreover, is highly believing in America. The majority of the pro-American peoples – who have been taken over by America since time immemorial through hatred and revenge tirades against Russia – are practically under the hammer of America, whereby the American people are being cheated through their teeth and know nothing of the fact that the USA government is endeavouring with all mean means to make Russia the only pig – according to the will of the secret dark government – in order to weaken it politically in such a way that it can be incorporated into the USA's desire for world domination. But I am not the only one who knows this, because there are other human beings who need their brains to think and who are therefore not stupid and dumb, as the following newspaper articles prove, which I will take the liberty of mentioning and which I want to read out to you and which I also intend to add to this conversation later. Barbara and then also Achim sent me the following with a link:

誠然，西方世界不可能對戰爭有敏感的認識，因為這個西方世界依賴美國，而且，高度相信美國。大多數親美人民 —— 自古以來就是透過對俄羅斯的仇恨和報復性謾駡而被美國洗腦 —— 實際上是在美國的錘子下，美國人民被騙得團團轉，對美國政府正在用一切卑鄙手段使俄羅斯成為唯一的討厭鬼 —— 根據秘密的黑暗政府的意志 —— 以便在政治上削弱它，使它能夠被納入美國統治世界的願望中，一無所知。但我不是唯一知道這一方面的人，因為還有其他會用大腦思考的人，因此他們並不愚蠢，正如以下報紙上的文章所證明的那樣，我將冒昧地提到這些文章，我想把這些文章讀給你聽，我還打算之後把它們加到這次談話中。以下就是Barbara和Achim發給我的文章連結內容：

Ex-NATO Advisor:
USA and EU are sacrificing Ukraine 'to weaken Russia'
uncut-news.ch, April 20, 2022

前北約顧問：
美國和歐盟正在犧牲烏克蘭“以削弱俄羅斯”
uncut-news.ch，2022年4月20日

Former Swiss intelligence officer and NATO adviser Jacques Baud on the roots of the war between Ukraine and Russia and its growing dangers.

前瑞士情報官員和北約顧問Jacques Baud（暫譯為雅克．巴德）談烏克蘭和俄羅斯之間戰爭的根源及其日益嚴重的危險。

As the war between Russia and Ukraine enters a new phase, former Swiss intelligence officer, senior United Nations official and NATO adviser Jacques Baud analyses the conflict and argues that the US and its allies are exploiting Ukraine in a long-running campaign to bleed its Russian neighbour dry.

隨著俄羅斯和烏克蘭之間的戰爭進入一個新的階段，前瑞士情報官員、聯合國高級官員和北約顧問雅克．巴德（Jacques Baud）分析了這場衝突，並認為美國及其盟友正在利用烏克蘭進行一場長期的戰役，以榨乾其鄰國俄羅斯的鮮血。

Translation:

翻譯：

AARON MATÉ: Welcome to Pushback. I am Aaron Maté. With me is Jacques Baud. He has held a number of high-level security and advisory positions with NATO, the UN and the Swiss military. He is also a former strategic intelligence officer with the Swiss Strategic Intelligence Service. Jacques, thank you very much for joining me.

AARON MATÉ（暫譯為亞倫．梅特）：歡迎來到《Pushback》節目。我是亞倫．梅特。和我一起的是雅克．巴德。他曾在北約、聯合國和瑞士軍方擔任過一些高級安全和諮詢職位。他也是瑞士戰略情報局的前戰略情報官員。雅克，非常感謝你加入我的節目。

JACQUES BAUD: Thank you for having me.

雅克．巴德：謝謝你邀請我。

AARON MATÉ: First of all, I would like to ask you to tell us more about your background and how it has influenced your insight into the crisis in Ukraine.

亞倫．梅特（AARON MATÉ）：首先，我想請你告訴我們更多關於你的背景，以及它如何影響你對烏克蘭危機的洞察力。

JACQUES BAUD: Well, as you just said, I am a strategic intelligence officer. I used to be in charge of the Warsaw Pact strategic forces – that was during the Cold War, but still I have a good overview of what is happening in Eastern Europe. I also used to be able to speak and read Russian, so I had access to some documents. And recently I had been seconded to NATO as head of the fight against small arms proliferation. And in that capacity, I was involved in several NATO projects in Ukraine from 2014. So I know the context quite well. I also monitored the possible influx of small arms into the Donbass in 2014. So when the Ukrainian armed forces started to have problems with personnel issues, suicide and all these things that occurred in 2014, as well as problems with recruiting soldiers, I was asked to participate on the NATO side in several projects to rebuild the Ukrainian armed forces. So that, in a nutshell, is my background in this area.

雅克．巴德：嗯，正如你剛才所說，我是一名戰略情報官員。我曾經負責華沙條約組織（Warsaw Pact）的戰略部隊 —— 那是在冷戰時期，但我仍然對東歐正在發生的事情有一個很好的瞭解。我以前還能說和讀俄語，所以我有機會接觸到一些文件。最近我被借調到北約，擔任打擊小武器擴散的負責人。而以這個身份，我從2014年起參與了北約在烏克蘭的幾項專案。所以我對情況相當瞭解。我還監測了2014年小型武器可能湧入頓巴斯的情況。因此，當烏克蘭武裝部隊開始出現人事問題、自殺和所有這些在2014年發生的事情，以及招募士兵的問題時，我被要求參加北約方面的幾個專案，以重建烏克蘭武裝部隊。簡而言之，這就是我在這方面的背景。

AARON MATÉ: You wrote a longer article, which I will link to in the notes to this post, in which you set out the causes of the Ukraine conflict in three broad areas. There is the strategic level, the expansion of NATO; the political level, which you refer to as the West's refusal to implement the Minsk agreements; and the operational level, the continuous and repeated attacks on the civilian population of the Donbass in recent years and the dramatic increase at the end of February 2022.

亞倫．梅特：你寫了一篇較長的文章，我將在這篇文章的附註中連結到這篇文章，其中你從三個大的方面闡述了烏克蘭衝突的原因。有戰略層面，即北約的擴張；有政治層面，即你提到的西方國家拒絕執行《明斯克協議》（Minsk agreements）；以及有行動層面，即近年來對頓巴斯平民的持續和反復攻擊，以及2022年二月底這類行動的急劇增加。

I would like to ask you to start here. Talk about what you call the dramatic increase in attacks on civilians in the Donbass in February, the period that led to the Russian invasion, and how this escalation of attacks, as you say, contributed to this war, this Russian invasion.

我想請你從這裡開始。談談你所說的二月份對頓巴斯平民襲擊的急劇增加，也就是導致俄羅斯入侵的時期，以及你所說的這種襲擊的升級是如何促成這場戰爭，這場俄羅斯的入侵。

JACQUES BAUD: Well, I think we have to understand, as you know, that the war did not start on the 24th of February this year. It started already in 2014. But I think that the Russians always hoped that this conflict could be solved on a political level; I mean the Minsk agreements and all that. So the reason for the decision to launch an offensive in the Donbass was not what happened since 2014. There was a trigger for it, and the trigger is two things; I mean, it came in two phases, if you like.

雅克．巴德：嗯，我認為我們必須明白，正如你所知，戰爭並不是在今年2月24日開始的。它在2014年就已經開始了。但我認為，俄羅斯人一直希望這場衝突能夠在政治層面得到解決；我指的是明斯克協議等等。因此，決定在頓巴斯發動攻勢的原因不是2014年以來發生的事情。它有一個觸發點，觸發點是兩件事；我的意思是，如果你同意，它分為兩個階段。

The first is the decision and the law passed by [Volodymyr] Selensky in March 2021 – last year – to take back Crimea by force, and that started the deployment of Russian tank troops – not Russian tank troops, but Ukrainian tank troops – in the southern parts of the country. I think the Russians were well aware of this deployment. They knew that an operation was going to be launched against the Donbass republics, but they didn't know when, and of course they just observed it, and then the real trigger came.

首先是2021年3月 —— 去年 —— ［弗拉基米爾］澤連斯基（Volodymyr Zelenskyy）通過的決定和法律，以武力奪回克里米亞（Crimea），並開始在該國南部地區部署俄羅斯坦克部隊 —— 不是俄羅斯坦克部隊，而是烏克蘭坦克部隊。我認為俄羅斯人很清楚這種部署。他們知道將對頓巴斯共和國發起行動，但他們不知道什麼時候，當然他們只是觀察，然後真正的觸發點就來了。

［中譯者註：這段稱澤連斯基時，特別強調他的名字，也就是［弗拉基米爾］澤連斯基（[Volodymyr] Selensky），而“弗拉基米爾”（Volodymyr）在烏克蘭語中有“統治世界”（ruler of the world）的意思，不知講述的人是否有弦外之音…
（資料取自《維基百科》］

You may remember that – I think it was on the 16th of February – Joe Biden said at a press conference that he knew the Russians were going to attack. And how would he know that? Because I still have some contacts, and nobody really thought that the Russians – before the end of January, beginning of February – would attack Ukraine. So there must have been something that alerted Biden that the Russians were going to attack.

你可能記得 —— 我想是在2月16日 —— 喬．拜登在一次新聞發佈會上說，他知道俄羅斯人要進攻。而他怎麼會知道呢？因為我仍然有一些接觸，沒有人真正認為俄羅斯人 —— 在1月底、2月初之前 —— 會攻擊烏克蘭。所以一定有什麼東西提醒拜登，俄羅斯人要進攻了。

And that something is indeed the intensification of the artillery shelling of the Donbass from the 16th of February onwards, and this increase in shelling was actually observed by the OSCE [Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe] observer mission, and they recorded this increase in violation, and it is a massive violation. I mean, we are talking about something that is about 30 times what it used to be, because in the last eight years there have been a lot of violations from both sides, by the way. But on the 16th of February, suddenly there was a massive increase in violations on the Ukrainian side. For the Russians, especially for Vladimir Putin, that was the sign that the operation – the Ukrainian operation – was about to start.

而這種情況確實是從2月16日開始加強對頓巴斯的炮擊，這種炮擊的增加實際上是由歐安組織［OSCE；歐洲安全與合作組織（Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe）］觀察團觀察到的，他們記錄了這種侵犯行為的增加，而且是大規模的侵犯。我的意思是，我們談論的東西是過去的30倍左右，因為在過去的八年裡，雙方都有很多侵犯行為，順便說一下。但在2月16日，烏克蘭方面的違規行為突然大量增加。對俄羅斯人來說，特別是對弗拉基米爾．普京來說，那是行動 —— 烏克蘭行動 —— 即將開始的跡象。

And then everything started; I mean, all the events came very quickly. That is, if we look at the numbers, you can see that, as I said, there was a massive surge from the 16th to the 17th of February, and then it reached a kind of maximum on the 18th of February, and that continued.

然後一切都開始了；我的意思是，所有的事件來得非常快。也就是說，如果我們看一下數字，你可以看到，正如我所說的，從2月16日到17日有一個大規模的激增，然後在2月18日達到了一種最大值，而且這種情況一直在持續。

And also the Russian parliament, the Duma, was aware of this possible offensive and passed a resolution calling on Vladimir Putin to recognise the independence of the two self-proclaimed republics in the Donbass. And that is exactly what Putin decided to do on the 21st of February. And immediately after the adoption of the Dek-rete, the law recognising the independence of the two republics, Vladimir Putin signed a friendship and mutual assistance agreement with these two republics. Why did he do this? So that the republics could ask for military help in the event of an attack. And that's why on the 24th of February, when Vladimir Putin decided to launch the offensive, he was able to invoke Article 51 of the UN Charter, which provides for assistance in the event of an attack.

俄羅斯議會，即杜馬（Duma；是指具諮議及立法功能的俄國議會），也意識到這種可能的攻勢，並通過了一項決議，呼籲弗拉基米爾．普京承認頓巴斯兩個自封的共和國的獨立。而這正是普京在2月21日決定要做的事情。而在Dek-rete（承認這兩個共和國獨立的法律）通過後，弗拉基米爾．普京立即與這兩個共和國簽署了友好互助協定。他為什麼這樣做？這樣，這兩個共和國在受到攻擊時，就可以請求軍事援助。這就是為什麼在2月24日，當弗拉基米爾．普京決定發動進攻時，他能夠援引《聯合國憲章》第51條，該條規定在受到攻擊時應提供援助。

AARON MATÉ: As you noted, the OSCE documented a sharp increase in ceasefire violations and artillery fire on the rebel-held side. But do you think, based on what you observed in the positioning of Ukrainian troops, that the threat of an imminent invasion or attack by Ukrainian forces was real? Can you judge that from the positioning of the troops on the other side of the front line?

亞倫．梅特：正如你所指出的，歐安組織記錄了叛軍控制的一方違反停火和炮擊的情況急劇增加。但是，根據你對烏克蘭軍隊佈署的觀察，你認為烏克蘭軍隊即將入侵或攻擊的威脅是真實的嗎？你能從前線另一側的部隊佈署來判斷嗎？

JACQUES BAUD: Yes. Exactly. I mean, we had reports, and these reports were available in the last few months. Since last year, we knew that the Ukrainians were reinforcing their forces in the south of the country, not on the eastern border with Russia, but on the line of contact with the Donbass. And indeed, as we have seen since 24 February, the Russians had almost no resistance at the beginning of the offensive, especially in the north. And so they were able to do what they have done since then, to encircle the Ukrainian forces in the south, in the south-eastern part of the country – that is, between the two Donbass republics and the Ukrainian mainland, if you like. And that is exactly where the bulk of the Ukrainian armed forces are today. And according to the… this is exactly the Russian doctrine to fight, I mean the operational doctrine. Their main offensive was clearly in the south, because the goal declared by Vladimir Putin – we can probably come back to these details later – was demilitarisation and denazification. Both objectives were to be realised or achieved in the south of the country, and that is where the main effort of the offensive was made. The offensive against Kiev is a so-called secondary effort that had two main functions. The first was to put pressure on the political leadership in Kiev, because the goal is to get the Ukrainians to negotiate. That was the first objective of this secondary effort.

雅克．巴德：是的。沒錯。我的意思是，我們有報告，這些報告在過去幾個月就有了。自去年以來，我們知道烏克蘭人正在加強他們在該國南部的部隊，不是在與俄羅斯接壤的東部邊境，而是在與頓巴斯的接觸線上。事實上，正如我們自2月24日以來所看到的情況，俄羅斯人在進攻之初幾乎沒有遇到任何抵抗，特別是在北部。因此，他們能夠做他們從那時起一直在做的事情，那就是將烏克蘭部隊包圍在南部，在該國的東南部 —— 也就是兩個頓巴斯共和國和烏克蘭大陸之間，如果你同意的話。這正是今天烏克蘭大部分武裝力量所在的地方。而根據... 這正是俄羅斯的作戰原則，我指的是作戰原則。他們的主要攻勢顯然是在南部，因為弗拉基米爾．普京宣佈的目標 —— 我們也許可以稍後再來討論這些細節 —— 就是非軍事化和去納粹化（denazification）。這兩個目標都將在該國南部實現或達到，而這正是進攻的主要力量所在。對基輔的攻勢是所謂的次要任務，但那有兩個主要功能。首先是對基輔的政治領導人施加壓力，因為目標是讓烏克蘭人進行談判。這是這項次要任務的第一個目標。

The second objective of this second effort was to tie down or pin down the remaining Ukrainian armoured forces so that they could not reinforce the main forces in the Donbass. And that worked quite well. That means that the Russians, as I said, could surround the main forces, the biggest part of the forces – the Ukrainian forces. Once they achieved that, they could withdraw some troops from Kiev, and that's what they've been doing since the end of March. They have withdrawn several units to reinforce what they want; I mean their own forces to continue the main fight in the Donbass. So they have withdrawn these troops from the Kiev area, and these troops will now help to flank the vanguard, the offensive against the main forces in the Donbass. And this is what some are calling the 'mother of all battles' that is currently taking place in the Donbass, where you have – nobody knows the exact number of Ukrainian troops; estimates vary from sixty thousand to eighty thousand that are surrounded – and the forces are being broken up into smaller cauldrons and then destroyed or neutralised.

這項次要任務的第二個目標就是束縛或牽制剩餘的烏克蘭裝甲部隊，使他們無法增援頓巴斯的主要部隊。而這一點相當成功。這意味著，正如我所說，俄羅斯人可以包圍主力部隊，即最大部分的部隊 —— 烏克蘭部隊。一旦他們實現了這一點，他們就可以從基輔撤出一些部隊，而這正是他們自三月底以來一直在做的事情。他們已經撤回了幾支部隊，以加強他們想要的東西；我是說他們自己的部隊繼續在頓巴斯的主要戰鬥。因此，他們已經將這些部隊從基輔地區撤出，這些部隊現在將協助從側翼進攻，對頓巴斯的主要部隊發起進攻。這就是一些人所說的目前正在頓巴斯發生的“主要戰鬥”，在那裡 —— 沒有人知道烏克蘭部隊的確切人數；估計從六萬到八萬不等，他們被包圍了 —— 這些部隊被打成一些更小的鍋（cauldrons），然後被摧毀或解除。

AARON MATÉ: It's pretty clear to me that the Selensky government had no interest in serious diplomacy on all the critical issues that could have prevented war, and I think the main factor is what I assume is US pressure behind the scenes, which we can't fully prove now. But I imagine evidence of that could emerge later. And of course the open hostility of the Ukrainian far right, who threatened Selensky with death if he made peace with Russia. These threats haunted him throughout his presidency and continued until the eve of the invasion, leading people like his top security official to say in late January that implementing the Minsk agreements would lead to the destruction of Ukraine – after Selensky had been elected on the basis of implementing the Minsk agreements – and this continued until the final talks on the implementation of the Minsk agreements, brokered by Germany and France.

亞倫．梅特：在我看來，很明顯，澤連斯基政府對所有可以防止戰爭的關鍵問題上的嚴肅外交沒有興趣，我認為主要因素是我假設的美國幕後壓力，我們現在無法完全證明。但我想像這一點的證據以後會出現。當然還有烏克蘭極右派的公開敵意，他們威脅澤連斯基，如果他與俄羅斯講和，就會被殺死。這些威脅在他擔任總統期間一直困擾著他，並一直持續到入侵前夕，導致他的最高安全官員等人在一月下旬說，執行明斯克協議將導致烏克蘭的毀滅 —— 此前澤連斯基是在執行明斯克協議的基礎上當選的 —— 這種情況一直持續到由德國和法國斡旋的事項，也就是關於執行明斯克協議的最後會談。

At these conversations in February, the Selensky government suddenly refused to even talk to the rebel representatives, which would make an agreement possible. And in the meantime, there were developments like this, which we've just learned about from the Wall Street Journal, namely that German Chancellor [Olaf] Scholz told Selensky on 19 February that, quote, "Ukraine should renounce its NATO ambitions and declare its neutrality as part of a broader European security pact between the West and Russia." And this pact that Scholz proposed was to be signed by Biden and Putin, but Selensky refused – flatly refused.

在二月份的這些會談中，澤連斯基政府甚至突然拒絕與叛軍代表進行對話，而這些會談原本將使得達成協議成為可能。與此同時，還有這樣的發展，我們剛剛從《華爾街日報》獲悉，即德國總理［奧拉夫］蕭茲（Olaf Scholz）在2月19日告訴澤連斯基的話，引用如下：「烏克蘭應該放棄其北約的野心，並宣佈其中立性，作為西方和俄羅斯之間更廣泛的歐洲安全條約的一部分。」而蕭茲提出的這個公約將由拜登和普京簽署，但澤連斯基拒絕了 —— 斷然拒絕。

［中譯者註：這段稱蕭茲時，也特別強調了他的名字，也就是［奧拉夫］蕭茲（[Olaf] Scholz），而“奧拉夫”（Olaf）是在迪士尼經典動畫長片《冰雪奇緣》的主要角色之一“雪寶”（一隻虛構的小雪人），同樣，這不知是否有弦外之音…
（資料取自《維基百科》］

But my question is, because I think it's pretty conclusive that the Selensky-Ukraine side sabotaged diplomacy, but what about Russia? Do you think Russia has exhausted all its diplomatic options to avoid war? Why, for example, did it not turn to the UN and ask for a peacekeeping force in the Donbass? And secondly, if the goal is to protect the human beings in the Donbass, why invade far beyond the Donbass and not just go there?

但我的問題是，因為我認為澤連斯基的烏克蘭政府方面破壞外交是非常確定的，但俄羅斯呢？你認為俄羅斯已經用盡了所有的外交選擇來避免戰爭嗎？例如，它為什麼不求助於聯合國，要求在頓巴斯建立一支維和部隊？其次，如果目標是保護頓巴斯的人民，那為什麼要入侵遠在頓巴斯之外的地區，而不是直接去那裡？

JACQUES BAUD: Well, I think the Russians have completely lost confidence in the West. I think that is the main reason. They don't trust the West anymore, and that's why I think they are now depending on a total victory on the military side to win something in the negotiations.

雅克．巴德：嗯，我認為俄羅斯人已經完全失去了對西方的信心。我想這是主要原因。他們不再信任西方，這就是為什麼我認為他們現在依賴軍事方面的全面勝利來贏得談判所要的成果。

I think that Selensky… I am not sure he is so averse to making peace. I do not think he can do it. I think from the very beginning he was caught between his … remember he was elected with the idea of making peace in the Donbass. That was his goal, that was his programme as president. But I think the West – and I would say the Americans and the British – did not want that peace. And of course the Germans and the French, who were the guarantors of the Minsk Agreement for the Ukrainian side, never really did their job. I mean, they never fulfilled their task, quite clearly. And especially France, which is also a member of the Security Council. Because I would like to remind you that the Minsk agreements were also part of a Security Council resolution. This means that they were signed not only by the different parties in Minsk, but also by the members of the Security Council who were responsible for the implementation of the agreement, and nobody wanted this agreement to be closed. So this means that a lot of pressure was put on Selensky so that he did not even want to talk to the representatives of the two breakaway republics.

我認為澤連斯基... 我不確定他是否如此反對講和。我認為他做不到。我認為，從一開始他就被夾在他的... 記得他當選時的想法是在頓巴斯地區實現和平。這是他的目標，這是他作為總統的計畫。但我認為西方 —— 我想說的是美國人和英國人 —— 並不想要這種和平。當然，作為烏克蘭方面《明斯克協議》的擔保人，德國人和法國人從未真正履行他們的職責。我的意思是，很明顯，他們從未完成他們的任務。尤其是法國，它也是安全理事會的成員之一。因為我想提醒你，明斯克協議也是安全理事會決議的一部分。這意味著它不僅是由當時聚集在明斯克的不同各方所簽署的，也是由負責執行協議的安理會成員簽署的，沒有人希望這個協議被擱置。因此，這意味著澤連斯基受到了很大的壓力，以至於他甚至不想與兩個分離共和國的代表交談。

And after that, by the way, we have seen that there are several indications that Selensky was not or is not fully in control of what is happening in Ukraine. I think the extreme, let's say, nationalist extreme right – I don't know exactly what the correct term is because it's a mixture of everything – but these forces have definitely prevented him, or have prevented him so far, from doing anything. And we can also see that he is wavering back and forth in terms of peace. You may recall that at the end of February, when Selensky indicated that he might be willing to negotiate, those negotiations were supposed to take place in Belarus. Within hours of Selensky making that decision, the European Union came up with a decision to provide half a billion in arms to Ukraine, which means that the Americans, certainly, but I think the West as a whole, have made every possible effort to prevent a political solution to the conflict, and I think the Russians are aware of that.

而在這之後，順便說一下，我們已經看到有幾個跡象表明，澤連斯基沒有或者說沒有完全控制在烏克蘭發生的事情。我認為，極端的，比方說，民族主義的極右派 —— 我不知道正確的說法是什麼，因為它是一個所有東西的混合體 —— 但這些力量肯定阻止了他，或到目前為止阻止了他做任何事情。而且我們還可以看到，他在和平問題上來回搖擺不定。你可能記得，在二月底，當澤連斯基表示他可能願意談判時，這些談判應該在白俄羅斯進行。在澤連斯基做出這一決定的幾個小時內，歐盟就做出了向烏克蘭提供5億軍火的決定，這意味著美國人，當然，但我認為整個西方國家作為一個整體，已經盡一切努力來阻止衝突的政治解決，我認為俄羅斯人也意識到了這一點。

We also have to understand that the Russians have a different understanding of how to wage war against the Western powers, especially the US. That means that we in the West tend to, when we negotiate, we negotiate up to a certain point and then the negotiations stop and we start a war. And that is war, full stop. With the Russians it is different. You start a war, but you never leave the diplomatic path, you go both ways. You exert mental pressure and try to achieve a goal, also by diplomatic means. This is very much in the spirit of Clausewitz – the [Prussian general and military theorist Carl von] Clausewitz famously defined war as the continuation of politics by other means.

我們還必須明白，俄羅斯人對如何對西方大國，特別是美國發動戰爭有不同的理解。這意味著，我們西方國家在談判時，往往是談判到一定程度，然後談判停止，我們開始打仗。而這就是戰爭，句號。對俄羅斯人來說，情況就不同了。你發動了一場戰爭，但你從來沒有離開過外交解決的途徑，你走的是兩條路。你施加精神壓力，試圖實現一個目標，同時也通過外交手段來達成。這非常符合克勞塞維茨（Clausewitz）的精神 —— ［普魯士將軍和軍事理論家卡爾．馮．克勞塞維茨］有句名言，那就是戰爭是延續政治的其他手段。

That's exactly how the Russians see it, too. That is why throughout the offensive, even at the beginning of the offensive, they have begun to negotiate, or they have signalled their willingness to do so. So the Russians definitely want to negotiate, but they don't trust the Western countries – I mean the West as a whole – to facilitate these negotiations. And that is the reason why they have not come to the Security Council. By the way, they probably know that, because as you know, this physical war that we are witnessing now is part of a wider war that was started years ago against Russia, and I think Ukraine is actually just… I mean, nobody is interested in Ukraine, I think. The goal is to weaken Russia, and once that's done with Russia, they will do the same with China, and you can see that already. I mean, we have seen that the Ukraine crisis has eclipsed everything else, but a similar scenario could also play out with Taiwan, for example. So the Chinese are aware of this. That is the reason why they do not want to give up their, let's say, relations with Russia.

這也正是俄羅斯人的看法。這就是為什麼在整個攻勢中，甚至在攻勢開始時，他們已經開始談判，或者他們已經表明他們願意這樣做。因此，俄羅斯人肯定想進行談判，但他們不相信西方國家 —— 我是說整個西方國家 —— 能夠促進這些談判。這就是他們沒有來到安全理事會的原因。順便說一下，他們可能知道，因為你知道，我們現在看到的這場肉搏戰是多年前開始的針對俄羅斯的更廣泛戰爭的一部分，我認為烏克蘭實際上只是... 我是說，沒有人對烏克蘭感興趣。我認為主要的目標是削弱俄羅斯，一旦對俄羅斯完成了這一點，他們將對中國做同樣的事情，你已經可以看到這一點。我的意思是，我們已經看到，烏克蘭危機已經使其他一切都黯然失色，但類似的情況也可能在台灣上演。所以中國人意識到了這一點。這就是為什麼他們不想放棄他們與俄羅斯的關係。

The motto is to weaken Russia, and you know there are several studies by the Rand Corporation about Russia expanding, Russia over-expanding and so on, and the whole scenario is…

他們的口號是削弱俄羅斯，你知道蘭德公司有幾項關於俄羅斯擴張、俄羅斯過度擴張等的研究，整個情況是...

AARON MATÉ: Just to explain that for those who are not familiar with it: Rand is a Pentagon-type think tank, and they did a study in 2019 where they looked at all the different ways the US could overextend itself and upset Russia, and the top option was to send weapons into Ukraine to fuel a conflict there that could drag Russia in, which is exactly what happened. [Note: Contra24 reported on this.]

亞倫．梅特：只是為那些不熟悉的人解釋一下。蘭德公司是一個美國國防部的智囊團，他們在2019年做了一項研究，研究了美國可能過度擴張並惹惱俄羅斯的所有不同方式，其中最重要的選項是向烏克蘭運送武器，為那裡的衝突推波助瀾，從而將俄羅斯拖入其中，這正是所發生的情況。［註：Contra24報導了此事。］

JACQUES BAUD: Absolutely. And I think that this is a complete plan to weaken Russia, and that's what we can observe at the moment. We could have foreseen this, and I think Putin foresaw this. And I think he understood that at the end of February, I mean on the 24th of February, or let's say just before, because he had to make the decision before, but in the days before the decision on the offensive, he understood that he could not do nothing. He had to do something. The Russian public would never have understood why Russia should just stand by and watch the Donbass republics being invaded or destroyed by Ukraine. So no one would have understood. So he was forced to launch. And then, I think… and this is what he said on 24 February, he said no matter what he did, the amount of sanctions he would get would be the same. So basically he knew that the slightestintervention in Donbass would trigger a massive initiation of sanctions, so he knew that. So he decided, "Okay, then I have to choose the maximum option," because one option would have been to just reinforce, not mess with the republics, and just defend the republics on the line of contact. But he chose the bigger option, which is to destroy the forces that threaten the Donbass.

雅克．巴德：絕對的。而且我認為這是一個削弱俄羅斯的完整計畫，這就是我們目前可以觀察到的情況。我們可以預見到這一點，我認為普京也預見到了這一點。我認為他明白，在二月底，我的意思是在2月24日，或者讓我們說就在之前，因為他必須在之前做出決定，但在決定進攻的前幾天，他明白，他不能什麼都不做。他必須做一些事情。俄羅斯公眾永遠不會理解為什麼俄羅斯應該袖手旁觀，看著頓巴斯共和國被烏克蘭入侵或摧毀。所以沒有人會理解。所以他被迫開槍。然後，我認為... 這是他在2月24日說的，他說無論他做什麼，他將受到的制裁都是一樣的。因此，基本上他知道，在頓巴斯的最輕微的干預都會引發大規模的制裁，所以他知道這一點。所以他決定，“好吧，那麼我就選擇最大的那個選項”，因為有一個選項是只增援，不惹共和國，只在接觸線上保衛共和國。但他選擇了更大的選項，那就是摧毀威脅頓巴斯的勢力。

And those are the two goals we see there. Demilitarisation, which is not the complete demilitarisation of the whole of Ukraine, but the suppression of the military threat in the Donbass; that is the main objective. There are many misunderstandings about what he said, and of course he was not very clear, but that is part of the Russian way of communicating and doing things. They want to keep all options open, and that is the reason why they only say what is necessary. And this is exactly what Putin meant on the 21st when he talked about suppressing the military threat to the Donbass. Denazification had nothing to do with killing Selensky or destroying the leadership in Kiev. That was definitely not the idea, and in fact, as I said, the main way they conceive of war is a combination of physical action and diplomatic action. So that means that in that kind of approach you have to keep the leadership in order to be able to negotiate, and that's why there was no possibility of killing or destroying the leadership in Kiev.

而這就是我們在那裡看到的兩個目標。一、非軍事化，這不是整個烏克蘭的完全非軍事化，而是壓制頓巴斯的軍事威脅；這就是主要目標。對他說的話有很多誤解，當然他也不是很清楚，但這是俄羅斯溝通和做事方式的一部分。他們希望保持所有的選擇，這就是為什麼他們只說必須要說的話。而這正是普京在21日談到壓制對頓巴斯的軍事威脅時的意思。二、去納粹化（Denazification），這與殺死澤連斯基或摧毀基輔的領導層沒有任何關係。這絕對不是他們的想法，事實上，正如我所說，他們設想戰爭的主要方式是軍事行動和外交行動的結合。因此，這意味著在這種方法中，你必須保留領導層，以便能夠進行談判，這就是為什麼沒有可能殺死或摧毀基輔的領導層。

So denazification was basically not about the 2.5 per cent of the extreme right in Kiev. It was about the 100 per cent of Azov people in Mariupol and Kharkiv and the like. So we tend to have misunderstandings because some people said, "Well, but why denazify? Because there are only 2.5 per cent right-wing parties, only 2.5 per cent or something like that, so it is meaningless. So, why denazify? It might not make sense." But that wasn't the point. It was definitely about the groups that have been recruited by the Ukrainians since 2014 to, let's say, I would say, pacify or control. I don't know exactly what the correct word for it is, but to fight in the Donbass. These people were extremists, fanatics, and these people were dangerous.

因此，去納粹化基本上不是針對基輔的2.5%的極右派。它是關於馬里烏波爾（Mariupol；或譯馬立波）和哈爾科夫（Kharkiv）等地100%的亞速營（Azov；全名：烏克蘭國民警衛隊「亞速」特種作戰獨立支隊）。所以我們往往會有誤解，因為有些人說：「好吧，但為什麼要去納粹化呢？因為只有2.5％的右翼政黨，只有2.5％左右的比例，所以它是無足輕重的。那麼，為什麼要去納粹化呢？這可能沒有意義。」但這並不是重點。這肯定是關於自2014年以來被烏克蘭人招募的團體，比方說，我想說，安撫或控制。我不知道確切的說法是什麼，但要在頓巴斯作戰。這些人是極端分子、狂熱分子，這些人很危險。

AARON MATÉ: And one of the points you make in your article that I didn't know is that part of the reason Ukraine had this need for militias, far-right militias and foreign mercenaries is because of the high defection rate in its own military ranks, the fact that people didn't want to serve and even defected to the other side of the rebellion in Donbass.

亞倫．梅特：你在文章中提到的一個我不知道的觀點是，烏克蘭之所以需要民兵、極右民兵和外國雇傭兵，部分原因是其自身軍隊的高叛逃率，人們不想服役，甚至叛逃到頓巴斯叛亂的另一方。

JACQUES BAUD: Exactly. As I told you, in NATO I have been monitoring the influx of arms into the Donbass, and we could not find any arms imports or arms exports from the Russian side into the Donbass. What we could detect, however, was that many Ukrainian units defected and took over entire battalions. And in 2014, most of the heavy artillery that the Donbass received came from defectors. Whole units defected, along with ammunition and people and so on. The reason is that the Ukrainian army was manned and organised in a territorial… in a territorial way. That means that there were a lot of Russian-speaking people in the armed forces. Then when they were sent to the Donbass, they didn't even want to fight against their own colleagues and Russian-speaking people, so they preferred to defect.

雅克．巴德：沒錯。正如我告訴你的，在北約，我一直在監測武器流入頓巴斯的情況，我們沒有發現任何武器進口或從俄羅斯方面出口到頓巴斯。然而，我們能看到的是，許多烏克蘭部隊越過邊界並接管了整個營。而在2014年，頓巴斯收到的大部分重型火炮都來自叛逃者。整個部隊叛逃了，還有彈藥和人員等等。原因是，烏克蘭軍隊是以領土的方式... 以領土的方式進行人員和組織的。這意味著，武裝部隊中有很多講俄語的人。然後當他們被派往頓巴斯時，他們甚至不想與自己的同事和講俄語的人作戰，所以他們寧願叛逃。

On top of that, the leadership of the Ukrainian army in 2014, I mean from 2014 to 2017, was extremely bad. There was a lot of corruption. I am not sure if the military was actually prepared for such a war, because the war that was waged by the rebels at that time was very similar to what you see today in the Middle East or in recent years. This meant that very mobile units could move very fast, much faster than the heavy units of the Ukrainian army. If we look at the pattern of the different battles that were fought in 2014 and 2015, we can see that the Ukrainians could never take the lead. They never had the initiative. The initiative was always with the rebels. And it was not a guerrilla. That is important to say. It was an extremely mobile warfare. On top of that, the army in general was not really prepared for combat. So there were a lot of suicides, a lot of alcohol problems, a lot of accidents, a lot of murders within the Ukrainian army.

最重要的是，2014年，我是說從2014年到2017年，烏克蘭軍隊的領導層非常糟糕。有很多腐敗現象。我不確定軍隊是否真的為這樣一場戰爭做好了準備，因為當時叛軍發動的戰爭與你今天在中東或近幾年看到的非常相似。這意味著非常機動的部隊可以移動得非常快，比烏克蘭軍隊的重型部隊快得多。如果我們看一下2014年和2015年進行的不同戰鬥的模式，我們可以看到，烏克蘭人永遠無法佔據領先地位。他們從未掌握過主動權。主動權總是在叛軍手中。而且，這不是一支遊擊隊。這一點很重要。這是一場極其機動的戰爭。除此之外，軍隊總體上沒有真正做好戰鬥準備。因此，在烏克蘭軍隊內部有很多自殺者，有很多酗酒問題，有很多事故，有很多謀殺案。

And that led to a lot of young Ukrainians leaving the country because they didn't want to join the army. And what I'm saying is that this was recorded and reported, I think, in official reports in the UK and in the US. There were some very interesting reports about the low recruitment rate of individuals because people just didn't want to join the army. That's why NATO got involved and I was involved in one such programme where they tried to transform the image of the army and find solutions to improve the recruitment conditions in the army and things like that.

這導致了很多烏克蘭年輕人離開這個國家，因為他們不想參軍。我想說的是，這在英國和美國的官方報告中都有記錄和報導。有一些關於個人徵兵率低的非常有趣的報導，因為人們就是不想參軍。這就是北約介入的原因，我參與了一個這樣的計畫，他們試圖改變軍隊的形象，並找到改善軍隊招募條件的解決方案等等。

But the solutions offered by NATO were actually institutional solutions that took time, and in order to compensate for the lack of personnel and probably to have more aggressive military personnel, they started to use internationalists and mercenaries, to be precise. Nobody knows exactly how many of these paramilitaries or far-right militias there are. Reuters puts the number at a hundred thousand. I can't verify that, but that's the number Reuters gave. And that seems to fit with what we are seeing now in the different regions of the country. So these paramilitaries played an important role, not in mobile warfare, and I would say not in normal field warfare either, but they were used to maintain order in the cities. And that is exactly what we have today, for example in Mariupol, where we had these people, because they are not equipped for field operations. They are equipped for war in the cities. They have light equipment, they have some armoured vehicles, but they don't really have tanks or anything like that.

但北約提供的解決方案實際上是體制性的解決方案，需要時間，為了彌補人員的不足，可能是為了擁有更有侵略性的軍事人員，他們開始使用國際主義者和雇傭兵，準確地說。沒有人知道這些准軍事人員或極右翼民兵到底有多少人。路透社認為這個數字是十萬。我無法證實這一點，但這是路透社給出的數字。而這似乎與我們現在在該國不同地區看到的情況相符。因此，這些准軍事人員發揮了重要作用，不是在機動戰中，我想說也不是在正常的野戰中，但他們被用來維持城市的秩序。而這正是我們今天的情況，例如在馬里烏波爾，我們看到在那裡有這些人，因為他們不具備野戰能力。他們的裝備是為了在城市裡作戰。他們有輕型裝備，他們有一些裝甲車，但他們並沒有真正的坦克或類似的東西。

So they are definitely units meant for war in the cities. That is what they do in big cities. And these people are extremely fanatical, we can say, and they are extremely dangerous. And that explains the way Mariupol, the battles and the extremely brutal fighting that you have in Mariupol as an example, and we will probably see the same thing in Kharkiv, for example.

所以他們絕對是用於城市戰爭的部隊。這就是他們在大城市所做的事情。這些人非常狂熱，我們可以說，他們非常危險。這就解釋了馬里烏波爾的情況，你在馬里烏波爾的戰鬥和極其殘酷的戰鬥就是一個例子，例如，我們可能會在哈爾科夫看到同樣的情況。

AARON MATÉ: Finally, I would like to ask you about some of the recent atrocities that we have reported. There have been reports of mass killings of civilians by Russia in the town of Butsha and also killings by Ukrainian forces, and then there was the attack on the railway station in Kramatorsk. I wonder if you have assessed these two incidents and what you think about them.

亞倫．梅特：最後，我想問你關於我們看到最近報導的一些暴行。有報導稱，俄羅斯在布查（Butsha）大規模殺害平民，烏克蘭軍隊也進行了殺戮，然後是克拉馬托爾斯克（Kramatorsk）火車站遭到襲擊。我想知道你是否評估了這兩起事件，以及你對它們的看法。

JACQUES BAUD: Well, there are two things. Firstly, the evidence that we have on both incidents suggests to me that the Russians were not responsible. But in fact we don't know. I think that is what we have to say. I mean, if we were honest, we do not know what happened. The indications that we have, everything, all the elements that we have, tend to point to Ukrainian responsibility, but we don't know.

雅克．巴德：嗯，有兩件事。首先，我們掌握的關於這兩起事件的證據表明，俄羅斯人沒有責任。但事實上，我們不知道。我認為這就是我們必須要說的。我的意思是，如果我們說實話，我們不知道發生了什麼。我們所掌握的跡象，所有的東西，所有的元素，都傾向於指向烏克蘭的責任，但我們不知道。

What worries me about the whole thing is not so much that we don't know, because in war there are always these situations where you don't know exactly who is really responsible. What worries me is that Western politicians have started to make decisions without knowing what is going on and what has happened. And that is something that deeply worries me, that before we have any result of an investigation, an enquiry, and I mean an international, impartial investigation, we are already imposing sanctions and making decisions, and I think that shows how the whole decision-making process in the West has been perverted. Since February, or even before, because after the hijacking – or not hijacking, by the way, it was not a hijacking – but the incident in Belarus with this Ryanair flight, we had a similar situation. You may remember that in May last year, just a few minutes after the press reported the incident, human beings started to react, even though they didn't know what was going on! So this is the way the political leadership in Europe, I mean in the European Union, but also in the European countries, is going about it. That worries me as an intelligence officer. How can you make a decision with such an impact on the population or on whole countries that even disrupts our own economy? So this tends to backfire. But we are making decisions without even knowing what is going on, and I think that indicates an extremely immature leadership that we have in the West in general. That is certainly the case in the US, but I think the example of the Ukraine crisis shows that European leadership is no better than US leadership. I think sometimes it is even worse. So that is what should worry us, that there are human beings who make decisions based on nothing, and that is extremely dangerous.

我對整件事的擔心並不在於我們不知道，因為在戰爭中總是有這樣的情況，你不知道到底是誰真正負責。我擔心的是，西方的政治家們已經開始在不知道正在發生什麼和已經發生什麼的情況下作出決定。這一點讓我深感憂慮，在我們得到任何調查、詢問的結果之前，我指的是國際的、公正的調查，我們已經在實施制裁和作出決定，我認為這表明西方的整個決策過程是如何被扭曲的。自二月以來，甚至更早，因為在劫持事件 —— 或者說不是劫持，順便說一下，這不是劫持 —— 而是白俄羅斯（Belarus）的這架瑞安航空（Ryanair flight）班機事件之後，我們有一個類似的情況。你可能還記得，去年五月，在媒體報導了這一事件後僅僅幾分鐘，人們就開始作出反應，儘管他們不知道發生了什麼！但他們的反應卻很強烈。所以這就是歐洲的政治領導層，我指的是歐盟，但也是歐洲國家的政治領導層的做法。作為一名情報人員，這讓我很擔心。你怎麼能作出一個對民眾或整個國家有如此影響的決定，甚至擾亂我們自己的經濟？所以這往往會適得其反。但我們甚至在不知道發生了什麼的情況下就作出決定，我認為這表明我們在西方的領導層總體上是極其不成熟的。美國的情況當然是這樣，但我認為烏克蘭危機的例子表明，歐洲的領導力並不比美國的領導力好。我認為有時它甚至更糟。因此，這才是我們應該擔心的，有一些人會毫無根據就作出決定，這是極其危險的。

AARON MATÉ: Jacques Baud is a former strategic intelligence officer with the Swiss Strategic Intelligence Service who has also held a number of high-level security and advisory positions with NATO, the UN and the Swiss military. Jacques, thank you very much for your time and insight.

亞倫．梅特：雅克．巴德是瑞士戰略情報局的前戰略情報官員，也曾在北約、聯合國和瑞士軍方擔任過一些高級安全和諮詢職位。雅克，非常感謝你的時間和洞察力。

JACQUES BAUD: Thank you for everything. Thank you.

雅克．巴德：謝謝你所做的一切。謝謝你。

SOURCE: US, EU SACRIFICING UKRAINE TO 'WEAKEN RUSSIA': FMR. NATO ADVISER
TRANSLATION: CONTRA24

來源：美國、歐盟犧牲烏克蘭來“削弱俄羅斯”。前北約顧問
翻譯：CONTRA24

Source: Ex-NATO Advisor: USA and EU are sacrificing Ukraine 'to weaken Russia'

資料來源：前北約顧問：美國和歐盟正在犧牲烏克蘭“以削弱俄羅斯”

Then there is the following article, which is also about what is really behind all this and the debacle that is being organised in Ukraine, which is being presented in a lying and slanderous way other than what really corresponds to the truth. But the stupid majority of the population and the rulers believe and cry fire and fury against Russia, whereby the supply of weapons is advocated, in accordance with Selensky's irresponsible arms begging, which is obviously vehemently supported and advocated by the USA – and which is followed by all those stupid idiots from the governments of various countries, who themselves are not capable of thinking and consequently also not capable of making correct decisions.

然後是下面這篇文章，它也是關於這一切背後的真實情況，以及在烏克蘭組織的潰敗，它是以撒謊和誹謗的方式呈現的，而不是真正的真相。但愚蠢的大多數人和統治者相信並對俄羅斯大喊大叫，根據澤連斯基不負責任的武器乞討，主張提供武器，這顯然得到了美國的大力支持和宣導 —— 而且各國政府的所有那些愚蠢的昏庸者也跟著這麼做，他們自己沒有思考能力，因此也沒有能力作出正確的決定。

The war in Ukraine is really about
the regime change in Russia sought by the USA.
uncut-news.ch, 20th April, 2022

烏克蘭的戰爭實際上是關於
美國所尋求的俄羅斯政權更迭
uncut-news.ch，2022年4月20日

The corporate-dominated media (who lied to us in 2003 with the 'shock and awe' attack on Iraq over non-existent weapons of mass destruction) is using the same strategy again to sell the war and deceive the public

企業主導的媒體（2003年曾因不存在的大規模殺傷性武器對伊拉克進行“震懾”攻擊而欺騙我們）再次使用同樣的策略來推銷戰爭並欺騙公眾。

American peace activist, documentary filmmaker and author Bruce Gagnon analyses the current war in Ukraine with a critical big picture of the political and strategic context that is so sorely – and deliberately – missing from the Western media.

美國和平活動家、紀錄片導演和作家Bruce Gagnon（暫譯為布魯斯．加尼翁）在分析當前的烏克蘭戰爭時，對政治和戰略背景進行了批判性的宏觀描述，而西方媒體卻是非常遺憾地 —— 並且是故意地 —— 忽略了這方面的訊息。

In the following interview, Gagnon points out that the Russian military intervention in Ukraine, which began on 24 February, can only be understood correctly if it is seen as a response to eight years of relentless military attacks by the NATO-backed Kiev regime against the ethnic Russian population of the Donbass region. Nearly 14,000 human beings were killed by the NATO-backed Kiev regime and its Russia-hating Nazi regiments. Where were the condemnations from Western governments and media?

在接下來的採訪中，加尼翁指出， 2月24日開始的俄羅斯對烏克蘭的軍事干預，只有被視為對北約支持的基輔政權對頓巴斯地區俄羅斯裔居民八年來無情軍事攻擊的回應，才能得到正確的理解。近一萬四千人被北約支持的基輔政權及其仇恨俄羅斯的納粹軍團所殺害。西方政府和媒體的譴責在哪裡？

They say the current expansion of the war is really just the front line in a larger war being waged against Russia by the United States and its European NATO allies. The ultimate goal is regime change in Moscow. This goal is to satisfy Western corporate interests and also includes China in its sights. In this way, the US and its imperialist allies are trying to thwart the emergence of a multipolar world and offset the historic decline in the might of Western corporations. He says: "China is also on the West's regime change list, and because of the new economic and military pact between Russia and China, it is essential to take out Russia first before going after China. The United States is currently using Taiwan in a similar way to how it used Ukraine as a tool of destabilisation."

他們說，目前的戰爭擴張實際上只是美國及其歐洲北約盟國對俄羅斯發動的一場更大戰爭的前線。最終目標是改變莫斯科的政權。這個目標是為了滿足西方企業的利益，同時也將中國納入其未來目標。通過這種方式，美國及其帝國主義盟友正試圖阻撓一個多極世界的出現，並抵消西方企業力量的歷史性衰退。他說：「中國也在西方的政權更迭名單上，由於俄羅斯和中國之間的新經濟和軍事協定，在對中國下手之前，必須先幹掉俄羅斯。美國目前利用台灣的方式與它利用烏克蘭作為破壞穩定的工具的方式相似。」

The outcome of the war in Ukraine is therefore crucial. The US and NATO want to continue this war to cannibalise, destroy and subjugate Russia. Hence the reckless, criminal influx of arms from the NATO bloc into Ukraine to thwart any political solution. Gagnon also points out that the US-NATO-Kiev axis is likely to resort to further false-flag atrocities to win the information war against Russia – a war openly waged by the Western so-called news media under the imaginary and deceptive guise of 'journalism'.

因此，烏克蘭戰爭的結果至關重要。美國和北約希望繼續這場戰爭，以吞噬、摧毀和征服俄羅斯。因此，北約集團不計後果而犯下罪行地將武器湧入烏克蘭，以阻撓任何政治解決方案。加尼翁還指出，美國-北約-基輔軸心國（US-NATO-Kiev axis）很可能訴諸進一步的栽贓（false-flag）暴行，以贏得針對俄羅斯的資訊戰爭 —— 西方所謂的新聞媒體在想像和欺騙性的“新聞”幌子下公開發動的戰爭。

Bruce Gagnon lives in Maine, United States of America. He is the founder and coordinator of the Global Network Against Weapons & Nuclear Power in Space. He also publishes sharp commentary on international developments on his blog Organizing Notes. Gagnon is a Vietnam War veteran, has worked as a labour rights activist and has travelled to dozens of countries to give public speeches and seminars for peace, anti-war and justice organisations.

布魯斯．加尼翁居住在美國緬因州。他是“反對太空中的武器和核動力全球網路” （the Global Network Against Weapons & Nuclear Power in Space）的創始人和協調人。他還在他的部落格《Organizing Notes》上發表了對國際發展的尖銳評論。加尼翁是一名越戰老兵，曾是一名勞工權利的推動者，並曾前往數十個國家為和平、反戰和正義組織發表公開演講和舉辦研討會。

Interview

採訪

Question: The US Congress is about to pass a lend-lease bill that will greatly increase the supply of arms to Ukraine, ostensibly to protect the country from 'Russian aggression'. This comes as negotiations are underway between Ukraine and Russia on a peace settlement to the conflict. Is Washington trying to strengthen Kiev's negotiating position or is the United States aiming to prolong the war?

問題：美國國會即將通過一項《租借法案》（Lend-Lease bill），該法案將大大增加對烏克蘭的武器供應，表面上是為了保護該國免受“俄羅斯侵略”。此前，烏克蘭和俄羅斯正在就和平解決衝突進行談判。華盛頓是想加強基輔的談判地位，還是美國的目的是在延長戰爭？

Bruce Gagnon: If the 2019 Rand Corp study entitled 'Overextending and Unbalancing Russia' is any guide, the US and NATO clearly do not want negotiations between Ukraine and Russia to succeed. Their interest is to create a festering wound along the Russian border and to force Moscow to spend more money on the military and the reconstruction of the massively destroyed Russian-ethnic Donbass region in eastern Ukraine. The destruction of the Donbass is largely due to shelling by the Ukrainian army, which has continued for over eight years since the US orchestrated coup in Kiev in 2014.

布魯斯．加尼翁（Bruce Gagnon）：如果2019年蘭德公司（Rand Corp）題為《過度擴張和失去平衡的俄羅斯》（Overextending and Unbalancing Russia）的研究是任何指導，美國和北約顯然不希望烏克蘭和俄羅斯之間的談判取得成功。他們的利益是在俄羅斯邊境製造一個潰爛的傷口，並迫使莫斯科在軍事上花費更多的錢，以及重建烏克蘭東部被大規模破壞的俄羅斯民族的頓巴斯地區。頓巴斯的破壞主要是由於烏克蘭軍隊的炮擊，自2014年美國在基輔策劃的政變以來，這種炮擊已經持續了八年多。

Question: In passing the Lend-Lease bill, the US Senate cited allegations of genocide and the massacre of civilians in the Ukrainian town of Butchah by Russian troops as justification for authorising more American arms for Ukraine. Russia categorically denies the allegations, while several independent analysts point out that the gruesome killings were a false-flag provocation carried out by Ukrainian forces to incriminate Russia. What do you think of the Western media reports on the Butscha massacre?

問題：在通過《租借法案》時，美國參議院引用了關於俄羅斯軍隊在烏克蘭布查鎮進行種族滅絕和屠殺平民的指控，作為授權美國向烏克蘭提供更多武器的理由。俄羅斯斷然否認這些指控，而一些獨立分析人士指出，這些可怕的殺戮是烏克蘭軍隊為指控俄羅斯而進行的虛假挑釁。你對西方媒體關於布查大屠殺（Butscha massacre）的報導有何看法？

Bruce Gagnon: I have studied the Butcha story closely and it is more than obvious that this was another false report by the US-NATO-Ukraine axis. The timings indicate that this was so. Russian troops left Butchah on the 30th of March. On the 31st of March, the mayor of Buka released a video in which he excitedly and proudly announced that Russian troops had left. On 1 April, a woman who is a deputy of the Buja city council made a similar video proclaiming victory over the Russians. Neither of these city leaders mentioned a massacre or bodies in the streets, which would have been more than obvious at the time. On the 2nd of April, Ukrainian forces retook control of Butsha. On the 3rd of April, the Western media began to report on the alleged massacre.

布魯斯．加尼翁：我仔細研究了布查的故事，更明顯的是，這是美國-北約-烏克蘭軸心的又一次虛假報導。時間上表明是這樣的。俄羅斯軍隊於3月30日離開布查。3月31日，布查市長發佈了一段視頻，他興奮而自豪地宣佈俄羅斯軍隊已經離開。4月1日，一位擔任布查市議會代表的婦女也製作了類似的視頻，宣佈戰勝了俄羅斯人。這兩位市領導都沒有提到大屠殺或街道上的屍體，這在當時是再明顯不過了。4月2日，烏克蘭部隊重新控制了布查。4月3日，西方媒體開始報導所謂的大屠殺事件。

［中譯者註：以上提到的三個地名，英文版翻譯的都不一樣，首先是“Butchah”，其次是“Buka”第三個是“Buja”；經查原（德）文出處，分別是：“Bucha”、“Buka”與“Bucha”；這裡就發現英譯版的第三個有誤。而這個烏克蘭的城市，經查其原名（俄語）是“Буча”，所以譯者大膽假設德文中的第二個（“Buka”）應該是拼錯了，也就是說，這三個地名都是指同一個地方“Bucha”（德文），中譯都應該是“布查”，不知各位讀者以為然否！？

後記：經譯者再繼續追查本篇訪談最初來源之原（英）文（受訪者是美國人），果如所料，英文的地點三個都是“Bucha”！（請參閱：Strategic Culture Foundation）］

The US, NATO and Ukrainian sides have repeatedly tried to claim that Russia is killing civilians, but each story lacked factual basis. The latest attempt was the Ukrainian army's shelling of Kramatorsk with a Tochka U missile on the 8th of April. Dozens of civilians were killed and up to 100 wounded. Ukrainian President Vladimir Selensky was quick to blame Russia, even though the Tochka-U missile is an obsolete technology no longer used by Russia, and ample evidence shows that it was repeatedly used by the army of the Nazi-led Kiev regime to shell the Donbass region.

美國、北約和烏克蘭方面多次試圖聲稱俄羅斯正在殺害平民，但每一個故事都缺乏事實依據。最近一次嘗試是烏克蘭軍隊在4月8日用Tochka U型導彈炮擊克拉馬托爾斯克（Kramatorsk）。數十名平民被殺，多達100人受傷。烏克蘭總統弗拉基米爾．澤連斯基迅速指責俄羅斯，儘管Tochka-U型導彈是俄羅斯不再使用的過時技術，而且有充分證據表明，以納粹為首的基輔政權的軍隊曾多次使用它來炮擊頓巴斯地區。

Moreover, Kramatorsk is located in the Russian-ethnic region of eastern Ukraine, which Russia is trying to liberate from the Nazi-led army in Kiev. It makes no sense for Russia to kill its own people.

此外，克拉馬托爾斯克位於烏克蘭東部的俄羅斯民族地區，俄羅斯正試圖從基輔的納粹領導的軍隊中解放該地區。俄羅斯殺害自己的人民是毫無意義的。

They say that every criminal has a modus operandi (MO) – a way of repeating their bad behaviour. I think it is safe to say that Ukraine is losing this war and has resorted to a modus operandi to turn public opinion against Russia in the hope that the US and NATO will then enter the war fully on the side of the Kiev regime. So Ukraine has replaced actual offensive military operations (which it is no longer really capable of) with false flag events as its primary strategy to denigrate and defeat Russia.

他們說，每個罪犯都有一個作案手法（MO；modus operandi） —— 一種重複其不良行為的方式。我認為可以說，烏克蘭正在輸掉這場戰爭，並採取了一種行動方式，使公眾輿論反對俄羅斯，希望美國和北約隨後會完全站在基輔政權一邊參戰。因此，烏克蘭已經用栽贓（false flag）事件取代了實際的進攻性軍事行動（它已經沒有真正的能力），作為其詆毀和擊敗俄羅斯的主要戰略。

Question: You have said that the war in Ukraine is not just about Ukraine and Russia, but is rather a frontline in a larger confrontation between the US-led NATO bloc on one side and Russia and China on the other. Are you saying that this is a proxy war?

問題：你曾說過，烏克蘭的戰爭不僅僅是關於烏克蘭和俄羅斯，而是以美國為首的北約集團為一方，以俄羅斯和中國為另一方的更大對抗中的前線。你是說這是一場代理戰爭？

Bruce Gagnon: There is no doubt that this war is being waged in the name of a larger mission – regime change in Russia, which the West hopes will enable Russia to be broken up into smaller nations, much as the US-NATO did with Yugoslavia after the American-led attack on Belgrade in 1999. The aim is for Western commodity corporations to take control of Russia's vast landmass and especially its vast natural resources, which include natural gas, oil, timber, agricultural land and vital mineral deposits. As the Arctic ice melts, it will become increasingly possible to 'drill' for offshore resources under the sea, which has long been covered by thick layers of ice. It is no coincidence that at the same time as this war began, the US-NATO was holding a war game called 'Cold Response' in northern Norway, which borders Russia's Arctic region.

布魯斯．加尼翁：毫無疑問，這場戰爭是以一個更大的任務的名義進行的 —— 俄羅斯的政權更迭，西方希望這將使俄羅斯被分解成更小的國家，就像1999年美國領導的對貝爾格勒（Belgrade）的攻擊後美國-北約對南斯拉夫所做的那樣。其目的是讓西方商品公司控制俄羅斯廣袤的土地，特別是其巨大的自然資源，其中包括天然氣、石油、木材、農業用地和重要的礦藏。隨著北極冰層的融化，在長期被厚厚冰層覆蓋的海下“鑽探”近海資源將變得越來越可能。無獨有偶，在這場戰爭開始的同時，美國-北約正在與俄羅斯北極地區接壤的挪威北部舉行一場名為「寒冷反應」（Cold Response）的戰爭遊戲。

In one of his confused moments, US President Joe Biden recently declared in a speech in Warsaw that "Putin must go". I am more than sure that this has been a major agenda item at many National Security Council meetings in Washington for a long time.

美國總統喬．拜登最近在華沙的一次演講中宣佈，“普京必須下台”，這是他困惑的時刻之一。我更確信，長期以來，這一直是華盛頓許多國家安全委員會會議的一個主要計畫項目。

Over the past 500 years, Russia has been invaded several times from the West. The Poles came across the European plain in 1605, followed by the Swedes under Charles XII in 1707, the French under Napoleon in 1812 and the Germans twice, in the two world wars of 1914 and 1941. Every 100 years the West makes an advance and fails.

在過去的五百年裡，俄羅斯曾數次被來自西方的入侵。波蘭人在1605年穿越歐洲平原，接著是1707年卡爾十二世（Charles XII；或查理十二世）領導的瑞典人，1812年拿破崙領導的法國人，以及1914年和1941年兩次世界大戰中的德國人。每隔100年，西方就會有一次進軍，然後失敗。

China is also on the West's regime change list, and because of the new economic and military pact between Russia and China, it is essential to take out Russia first before going after China. The United States is currently using Taiwan as an instrument of destabilisation in a similar way to Ukraine.

中國也在西方的政權更迭名單上，而且由於俄羅斯和中國之間新的經濟和軍事協定，在對中國下手之前，必須先幹掉俄羅斯。美國目前正在利用台灣作為破壞穩定的工具，其方式與烏克蘭類似。

Question: Russia has said that it hopes the war in Ukraine will end soon. But from what you say, there is a real danger that the conflict could drag on much longer because of the arms supplies to Ukraine from the US, the UK and NATO. Is it this prolongation of the war that influences the calculations and policies of Washington and London?

問題：俄羅斯曾說過，它希望烏克蘭的戰爭很快結束。但從你所說的情況來看，由於美國、英國和北約向烏克蘭供應武器，確實存在衝突可能拖得更久的危險。是這種戰爭的延長影響了華盛頓和倫敦的盤算和政策嗎？

Bruce Gagnon: The vested interests within the US-EU military-industrial complex stand to make massive profits if this war can be prolonged for months or even years. I believe this is the intention of Washington and Brussels. By getting NATO members to supply obsolete military equipment to Ukraine, Western arms manufacturers can vividly imagine replacing these weapons stocks with the latest technologies that must be 'interoperable' with the Pentagon's space-based warfare capabilities. Over time, this will create a huge global high-tech war machine. Don't forget that NATO is also going international, taking on 'partners' in Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, Japan and other Asia-Pacific countries. In this 'mission vision', the US would be responsible for 'spearheading' and getting NATO members and partners to pay for everything. NATO's mission is ultimately to force submission to Western corporate demands. They declare that they are a 'peace alliance', but their history is nothing but endless war.

布魯斯．加尼翁：如果這場戰爭能夠延長數月甚至數年，美國-歐盟「軍工複合體」（military-industrial complex）的既得利益者就會獲得巨大的利潤。我相信這就是華盛頓和布魯塞爾（Brussels；是實際意義上的歐盟首都）的意圖。通過讓北約成員向烏克蘭提供過時的軍事裝備，西方軍火製造商可以生動地想像用最新的技術來取代這些武器庫存，這些技術必須與美國國防部的太空（space-based）戰力“互通有無”。隨著時間的推移，這將創造一個巨大的全球高科技戰爭機器。不要忘了，北約也在走向國際，在澳大利亞、紐西蘭、韓國、日本和其他亞太國家吸收“夥伴”。在這個“任務願景”中，美國將負責“帶頭”，並讓北約成員和夥伴支付一切費用。北約的使命最終是強迫屈服於西方企業的要求。他們宣稱自己是一個“和平聯盟”，但他們的歷史只是無休止的戰爭。

Question: Do you think that NATO's US-led confrontation with Russia presents an even bigger picture? That is, the bigger battle is to stop the historic decline of the US-dominated Western economic system? Russia and China have consistently welcomed the emergence of a multipolar world based on cooperation and partnership. The United States seems deeply opposed to this vision, claiming that Moscow and Beijing are undermining a so-called 'rules-based world order'. Why does Washington reject a multipolar vision? What constitutes American might that demands unipolar dominance, loyalty or war?

問題：你認為北約以美國為首的與俄羅斯的對抗呈現出一個更大的局面嗎？也就是說，更大的戰鬥是為了阻止美國主導的西方經濟體系的歷史性衰落？俄羅斯和中國一貫歡迎一個基於合作和夥伴關係的多極世界的出現。美國似乎極力反對這一願景，聲稱莫斯科和北京正在破壞一個所謂的“基於規則的世界秩序”。為什麼華盛頓拒絕多極化的願景？是什麼構成了要求單極的主導地位、忠誠否則戰爭的美國力量？

Bruce Gagnon: The US and NATO are an insecure and desperate military war machine. They are the thugs of the Western-led globalisation syndicate. They know their days are numbered as the dominant Western imperial powers that have ruled most of the world for hundreds of years.

布魯斯．加尼翁：美國和北約是一個不安全的、絕望的軍事戰爭機器。他們是以西方為首的全球化集團的暴徒。他們知道自己作為統治了世界大部分地區數百年的西方帝國主義強國的日子已經不多了。

It reminds me of a drunken gambler rolling the dice – knowing he has lost everything, but still risking it all one last time. Washington and the EU realise that the emerging multipolar world is unstoppable – if you add up the population figures, this emerging tide is the vast majority of the world's population. So the US and NATO know that this is their last chance to keep control of the planet. Washington-London-Paris-Berlin-Brussels want total might and control and are prepared to lay waste to all nations that stand in their way.

這讓我想起了一個醉酒的賭徒擲骰子 —— 明明知道自己已經輸光了，但還是要冒最後一次險。華盛頓和歐盟意識到，新興的多極世界是不可阻擋的 —— 如果你把人口數字加起來，這個新興的大潮是世界人口的絕大部分。所以美國和北約知道，這是他們保持對地球控制的最後機會。華盛頓-倫敦-巴黎-柏林-布魯塞爾想要完全的權力和控制，並準備好摧毀所有阻擋在他們面前的國家。

China, Russia, Iran, India and other countries of the Global South understand this, of course. They have suffered long enough under US and European domination. They are in the process of creating this multipolar world – a 'fair world order', as a Russian leader recently called it, that is not controlled by Wall Street, the Bank of England, the IMF and the World Bank. The question before us all is: will the US and NATO be prepared to take this drive to maintain control into a third world that might then go nuclear? The so-called 'pacifists' waving Ukrainian flags in the streets should ask themselves if they are not inadvertently helping to push things in this terrible direction.

中國、俄羅斯、伊朗、印度和全球南方的其他國家當然明白這一點。他們在美國和歐洲的統治下已經遭受了足夠長的時間。他們正在創造這個多極世界（multipolar world） —— 正如一位俄羅斯領導人最近所說的，一個不受華爾街、英格蘭銀行、國際貨幣基金組織和世界銀行控制的“公平的世界秩序”。擺在我們所有人面前的問題是：美國和北約是否準備好將這一保留控制權的願望帶到第三世界，而第三世界届時可能會出現核問題？那些在街上揮舞烏克蘭國旗的所謂“和平主義者”應該捫心自問，他們是不是在無意中幫助推動事情向這個可怕的方向發展。

Question: Would you agree that the Western news media, in its coverage of the Ukraine war and its lead-up, has more openly taken on the function of a propaganda system peddling intelligence disinformation to distort the character of the conflict with Russia?

問題：你是否同意，西方新聞媒體在報導烏克蘭戰爭及其前奏時，更公開地承擔了宣傳系統的角色，兜售情報方面的虛假資訊，以歪曲與俄羅斯衝突的性質？

Bruce Gagnon: The Western media is all in on demonising Russia and contributing to the escalation of this war. Just a few days ago I turned on NPR (National Public Radio) while driving and heard a 'correspondent' claim that Russian troops had raped young girls in Buka.

布魯斯．加尼翁：西方媒體都在妖魔化俄羅斯，助長了這場戰爭的升級。就在幾天前，我在開車時打開了NPR（國家公共廣播電台），聽到一個“記者”聲稱俄羅斯軍隊在布查強姦了年輕女孩。

Have we forgotten the landmark 1975 US Senate Committee hearings on CIA control of the media? Those hearings were chaired by Senator Frank Church (D-ID). At that time, it was revealed that 400 journalists around the world were supplying news stories on behalf of the CIA. Operation Mockingbird it was called. Look it up on the internet. I don't think the videos of those congressional hearings have been removed from YouTube yet. I would bet my life that the so-called 'Butscha rape story' was produced by the agency.

難道我們忘記了1975年美國參議院委員會關於中情局控制媒體的里程碑式的聽證會？這些聽證會是由參議員弗蘭克．丘奇（D-ID）主持的。當時，據透露，全世界有400名記者在為中情局提供新聞報導。這就是所謂的“Operation Mockingbird”（暫譯為“知更鳥行動”）。可以在互聯網上查一查。我認為那些國會聽證會的影片還沒有從YouTube上刪除。我敢打賭，所謂的“布查強姦案”是由該機構製作的。

［中譯者註：以下就是當年聽證會的相關連結之一：
《Church Committee Hearings on FBI Intelligence Activities》］

Just last week we learned from an NBC-TV report that US intelligence agencies are spreading false stories about Russia to stop Moscow from doing anything bad." The corporate-dominated media (which fooled us into believing the 'Shock and Awe' attack on Iraq in 2003 because of non-existent weapons of mass destruction) is using the same strategy again to sell war and deceive the public. And considering all the efforts of the corporate-owned social media to suppress alternative views on the Ukraine war, it is clear that the number one goal is to brainwash the public. Modus operandi – every criminal syndicate has one.

就在上週，我們從NBC電視台的報導中得知，美國情報機構正在散佈關於俄羅斯的虛假故事，以阻止莫斯科“做任何壞事”。企業主導的媒體（2003年因不存在的大規模殺傷性武器而愚弄我們相信對伊拉克的“震懾”攻擊）正在再次使用同樣的策略來推銷戰爭和欺騙公眾。而考慮到企業擁有的社交媒體為壓制關於烏克蘭戰爭的其他觀點所做的一切努力，很明顯，其首要目標是對公眾進行洗腦。作案手法（Modus operandi） —— 每個犯罪集團都有一套。

SOURCE: THE WAR IN UKRAINE IS REALLY ABOUT U.S. PURSUING REGIME CHANGE IN RUSSIA – BRUCE GAGNON
TRANSLATION: LZ

資料來源：烏克蘭戰爭的實質是美國在俄羅斯推行政權更迭 —— 布魯斯．加尼翁
翻譯：LZ

Source: Beim Krieg in der Ukraine geht es in Wirklichkeit um den von den USA angestrebten Regimewechsel in Russland

資料來源：Beim Krieg in der Ukraine geht es in Wirklichkeit um den von den USA angestrebten Regimewechsel in Russland

So these are the two articles I wanted to read to you, which moreover do not simply banally and falsely state what the US and all the dumb-dumbs want to hear and read and believe. The whole thing looks quite different from what the newspapers so pro-America and pro-Ukraine constantly report and present the facts differently or conceal them from what they really are. Everything is here in these two articles, as you yourselves always report to me, which I am now talking about for once and saying what is really Tacheles, without having an opinion about it, but only reproducing what you report to me truthfully and what I was able to verify myself through your help. Unfortunately, one has … , that I sometimes … , because just my hair … . That it was … to gather evidence for myself personally that what you told me corresponded to the correctness and truth, that … …. All that I … thanks to your help, that remains with me, and I don't want to say more about it than what I have just said now.

因此，這是我想讀給你聽的兩篇文章，而且這兩篇文章並不是僅是平庸而虛假地陳述美國和所有蠢人想聽到、讀到和相信的東西。整個事件看起來與那些親美國和親烏克蘭的報紙不斷報導的內容大相徑庭，那些報導以不同的方式陳述事實，或者掩蓋事實的真相。但一切都在這兩篇文章中，正如你們自己一直向我陳述的那樣，我現在就談一次，說說那些真正的問題（德語：Tacheles），不對它有任何看法，而只是重複你們向我陳述的真實情況，以及我經由你們的協助而能夠自己核實的情況。不幸的是，有人...，我有時...，因為只是我的頭髮...。這是... 為自己親自收集證據，證明你告訴我的事情是正確且真實的，那 ... 我 ... 感謝你的幫助，這一切都留在了我的記憶中，除了我剛才說的，我不想再多說了。

Ptaah:

This is for me to understand, so also for Bermunda, Florena and Enjana, who accompanied you during these times, especially Bermunda through the last few months, as well as Quetzal, who did not miss the opportunity to stand in for Bermunda a few times during our absence.

這是我應該理解的，也是Bermunda、Florena和Enjana應該理解的，他們在這段時間裡陪伴著你，特別是Bermunda在過去的幾個月裡，還有Quetzal，在我們不在的時候，他沒有錯過幾次代替Bermunda出席的機會。

Billy:

Anyway, I am grateful to everyone for their help, including you of course. But now I want to say the following, from the point of view of the theory of mind, in order to answer E.'s and D.'s questions. When E. talks about the laws of self-defence given to us by Creation, they are quite different from what he and apparently also D. imagine. The creative laws for human beings are based neither on hatred, revenge, retaliation, senseless killing, torture, murder, manslaughter, violence and above all neither on war, destruction nor annihilation, as the human beings have wrongly interpreted this since time immemorial and put it into practice.

總之，我很感謝大家的幫助，當然也包括你。但現在我想從心智理論（the theory of mind）的角度說說以下幾點，以回答E.和D.的問題。當E.談到「造化」（Creation）賦予我們的自衛法則時，這與他和顯然還有D.的想像完全不同。人類的「造物法則」（the creative laws）既不是基於仇恨、復仇、報復、無意義的殺戮、酷刑、謀殺、過失殺人、暴力，最重要的是既不是基於戰爭、破壞或毀滅，因為人類自古以來就錯誤地解釋了這方面意義並據以實踐。

［中譯者註：“Creation”一詞據理解應是指宇宙間最高層級的能量，是一切生命與萬物的原創力，也被稱為神聖本源（Divine origin）。在本翻譯中，依語意譯為「造化」、「造物」等，而其形容詞用語“creative laws”則視語意譯為「造物之法則」或稱「造物法則」。］

Fundamentally, it is clear and unambiguous that the natural laws of Creation do not simply consist of the laws of nature which have a general evolutionary validity, but of laws which are specifically attuned to the behaviour of life and to the specific behaviour of the various species. These are consequently regulated and valid for the planet, the entire fauna and flora and the human beings. They are, therefore, laws that encompass all living things, which primarily regulate coming into being and passing away in a completely natural way, beginning with the formation of the planet and extending to all life-forms large and small and to every genus and species. Everything and everyone is included in it, so also the human beings, and therefore also all life down to the smallest single-cell microbe.

從根本上說，明確無誤的是，「造物的自然法則」（the natural laws of Creation）並不只是由具有一般進化效力的自然法則組成，而是由專門針對生命行為和各種物種的具體行為的法則組成。因此，這些法則對地球、整個動植物群和人類都是規範和有效的。因此，它們是涵蓋所有生物的法則，主要是以完全自然的方式調節生命的生成和消亡，從地球的形成開始，延伸到所有大大小小的生命形式和每個屬和種。一切事物和每個人都包括在其中，人類也是如此，因此也包括所有的生命，直到最小的單細胞微生物。

… … …

［中譯者註：以上數個段落，Billy繼續述說有關「造物法則」與所有生命形式的關係，但對人類這種進化最高的生命形式，作為一個有自我意識的物種，「造物法則」具有不同的重要意義，那就是要消除那些負面的影響等等，為爭取時效，這幾段暫緩翻譯，敬請見諒！］

Never was the human being of Earth taught that the Law of Creation of conscious evolution, which applies to him alone, demands that all the degenerations which consciousness has developed or absorbed should be brought under control and dissolved. Consequently, the human being never came to the point – because he never endeavoured to analyse, combat and dissolve these degenerations – where they could never again come to the fore in him through any thoughts and other impulses or through any outside influences. And since he never did this from time immemorial, evil and violence gained the upper hand and triumphed again and again. So human beings also invented a God to whom as justification for murder and manslaughter, and thus of course also for war and all other evil, the right of bloodshed and revenge, retaliation and hatred etc. was attributed, and this ultimately to human beings. And in this way the human beings still think today, consequently every thought of defence or self-defence consists only in reacting with violence, hatred, murder, manslaughter and destruction etc., instead of seeking and finding a way and a solution in logic, understanding and reason, which ultimately prevents all violence. However, the human beings of Earth are still caught in the spiral of violence of every kind, because their thinking has been impregnated with hatred, revenge, retaliation, murder, manslaughter, ruin and destruction etc. since time immemorial, and therefore it is also impossible to predict with exact precision how everything will develop and what the final reactions of the various parties will be, which will ultimately play the final melody of the war in Ukraine. When E.Z. writes the following in his email:

地球上的人類從來沒有被教導過，意識進化的「造物法則」只適用於他自己，它要求所有意識發展或吸收的墮落都應該被控制和消解。因此，人類從未達到這樣的地步 —— 因為他從未努力分析、對抗和化解這些退化 —— 在這種情況下，這些退化無法通過任何思想和其他衝動或通過任何外部影響再次出現。因為自古以來他從未這樣做過，所以邪惡和暴力占了上風，並一次又一次地取得了勝利。因此，人類也創造了一個上帝，作為謀殺和誤殺的理由，當然也作為戰爭和所有其他邪惡，流血和復仇，報復和仇恨等的理由，這最終歸功於人類。今天，人類仍然以這種方式思考，因此，每一個防禦或自衛的想法都只是以暴力、仇恨、謀殺、誤殺和破壞等方式來回應，而不是在邏輯、理解和理性中尋求和找到一個方法和解決方案，這最終會阻止所有的暴力。然而，地球上的人類仍然陷入各種暴力的漩渦中，因為他們的思想中自古以來就充滿了仇恨、復仇、報復、謀殺、誤殺、毀滅和破壞等，因此也不可能準確地預測一切會如何發展，各方的最終反應是什麼，這將最終演奏烏克蘭戰爭的最後旋律。當E.Z.在他的電子郵件中寫到以下內容時：

"If one or more states are preparing to invade you to destroy you, what should be done to prevent a conflict when all diplomatic avenues have been exhausted or only one side really wants peace while the other only wants war? Or react earlier so that the only defence then left is nuclear war?"

「如果一個或多個國家準備入侵你消滅你，當所有的外交途徑都已用盡或只有一方真正希望和平而另一方只想戰爭時，應該如何防止衝突的發生？或者更早地做出反應，以便那時剩下的唯一防禦是核戰爭？」

Then, unfortunately, what has to be said about this is that the whole thing is written in the stars, as they say. Unfortunately, nothing can be predicted – even if the future already knows – because it will turn out what will be. I don't need or want to say any more about it, because in my opinion I have already said too much anyway for the bulk of earthly humanity to lose even an iota of a single thought about it. The truth is that since time immemorial it has only been individual human beings – which is also the case today – who really think about reality and its truth and try to understand what is going wrong in this world with the earthling. From time immemorial, such human beings were those – of whom there were really very few and who had the courage to speak the truth – who had to pay for their courage with their lives. Alone, the massless calumnies against them were never enough for the antagonists, for these did not rest sooner and quenched their hatred against the few righteous ones who raised the word of truth only when they could silence the truth-bearers through the courts or bury them 180 centimetres in the ground. That, dear friend, is what I had to say about all that has accrued today. But what I want to say in the end is this: if the war is really very serious, nevertheless the 'investigations' of the so-called 'commissioners' who want to get to the bottom of war crimes must be called ridiculous, because fundamentally only one-sided investigations are carried out, namely against the attacking party, but not the whole of the defending party is also examined, which is equally guilty.

那麼，可惜對此不得不說的是，整個事情都是命中註定的，正如他們所說的那樣。遺憾的是，沒有什麼是可以預測的 —— 即使未來已經知道了 —— 因為它會變成什麼。我不需要也不想再多說什麼了，因為在我看來，反正我已經說得太多了，以至於地球上的大多數人都不想再去想它了。事實是，自遠古以來，只有個別的人 —— 今天也是如此 —— 會真正思考現實和它的真相，並試圖瞭解這個世界上的地球人出了什麼問題。自古以來，這樣的人是那些 —— 其中真的很少，有勇氣說出真相的人 —— 他們不得不為自己的勇氣付出生命。僅僅是針對他們無休止的誹謗，對敵對者來說永遠是不夠的，因為這些人並沒有很快停下，只有當他們能夠通過法庭讓真相的傳播者沉默，或者將他們埋在地下180公分的地方時，他們才會熄滅對少數正義者的仇恨，說出真相。親愛的朋友，這就是我對今天所累積的一切不得不說的。但我最後想說的是：如果戰爭真的非常嚴重，儘管如此，那些想要查清戰爭罪行的所謂“委員們”的“調查”必須說是荒謬的，因為從根本上說，只進行了片面的調查，即針對進攻方的調查，卻沒有對防守方的全部進行審查，而防守方也同樣是有罪的。

Ptaah:

As usual, I have taken note of your long remarks, to which I can only agree. However, only a few Earth-humans will take in your words and really process them mentally. But let us now speak of other matters of importance, for my prolonged absence has brought some omissions which I must now discuss with you.

像往常一樣，我注意到了你的長篇大論，對此我只能表示同意。然而，只有少數地球人會接受你的話，並在心智上真正處理它們。但現在讓我們談談其他重要的事情，因為我長期不在帶來了一些遺漏，我現在必須與你討論。

Billy:

Of course, but I would like to talk to you about the Corona epidemic. Unfortunately, it has also hit us at the Centre – whereas you can protect yourselves – but I hope that we will all come through it well. But what I wanted to ask is: How should we behave anyway?

當然，但我想和你談談冠狀病毒的疫情。不幸的是，它也襲擊了我們中心 —— 儘管你們可以保護自己 —— 但我希望我們都能順利度過難關。但我想問的是。我們到底應該怎樣做？

Ptaah:

If you have survived the whole thing, then behave as before. Continue to use the respirators and do not be distracted by what is being irresponsibly ordered by the state officials that wearing respirators and keeping your distance is no longer necessary. Pay no attention to these orders because they do not correspond to what still needs to be.

如果你們在這次事件中度過難關，那麼就像以前一樣行事。繼續使用防護口罩，不要被國家官員不負責任的命令所干擾，他們說已經沒有必要佩戴防護口罩和保持距離。不要理會這些命令，因為這不符合仍然需要的防範措施。

Billy:

The FFP2 respirators have been part of our use so far when we get together with people who do not live with us in our household.

到目前為止，當我們與不住在家裡的人聚會時，FFP2口罩一直是我們使用的一部分。

Ptaah:

That is correct and you should not change that, so keep everything as it is. So even if all of you are free from the Corona virus again, do not change your previous precautionary behaviour. Keep using the FFP2 respirators, because they protect you to 96 to 98 percent from dangerous Corona infections, but also from other pathogens that cannot be described as harmless. It really is not yet time to disregard this precaution.

這是正確的，你不應該改變這一點，所以保持一切原樣。因此，即使你們所有人都再次擺脫了冠狀病毒，也不要改變你們以前的預防行為。繼續使用FFP2口罩，因為它們可以保護你們96%到98%的人免受危險的冠狀病毒感染，也可以保護你們免受其他不能說是無害的病原體感染。現在確實還不是無視這種預防措施的時候。

Billy:

Thank you, that is a clear answer. Then you can now get started with what you have to say.

謝謝你，這是個明確的答案。那麼你現在可以開始說你要私下講的部分了。

（本篇接觸報告結束）

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英文資料來自：http://www.futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_Meier/Contact_Report_801

中文翻譯借助Deepl Translator的協助